Forced Abortions One Of The Many Abuses From The Church Of Scientology
Last night I had the pleasure of interviewing Astra Woodcraft and her father Lawrence for our Glosslip Radio show on the BlogTalkRadio.com network. Both Astra and Lawrence were in the Church of Scientology’s most devout group called the Sea Organization and members who join must sign a billion-year contract. Being part of the Sea Org means devoting your life completely to Scientology and turning over total control to the Church. Apparently this also includes your reproductive life as well.
Astra told of being very young and having come down with a bad flu. As she lay feverish and alone she begged for a mother who refused to be by her daughter’s side because she had important work to do for the Church. Astra, too young to understand how “clearing a planet” could take precedent over her need to be comforted by her mother, was forced to endure terrible hardships that “celebrity” adherents of Scientology wouldn’t DARE dream of imposing on their own families.
Astra described a world where she was forced to get married at age 15 simply because she was seen kissing a fellow Scientology member outside her dorm: cramped living quarters she shared with fellow child members of the Sea Org. With Astra’s days filled with manual labor, a sparse diet consisting of rice and beans for every meal, and religious indoctrination classes; stealing a kiss must have seemed liked a welcome respite from Astra’s harsh reality.
So at age 15, Astra was sent to Las Vegas to be married to her first crush due to the strict rules of sexual relationships for those in the Sea Org. Making only $11 dollars a week and being forced to pay for all of life’s luxuries like soap, shampoo and any other toiletries left virtually nothing to be used in the way of birth control. The Church of Scientology did NOT provide the basics to these “forced couples” and now that she was married, Astra was a ticking time bomb for becoming pregnant.
As could be expected now at age 19 and already married for 4 years, Astra found herself pregnant. When she informed those at the Church of her pregnanct, she was presented with two choices; have an abortion, or be cut off from all of her family including her mother, sister, brother and husband. Astra’s father had already left he Sea Org and was quietly playing by the rules so as not to lose contact with his children. This was the life-line Astra needed to save her unborn child an unfair fate.
Astra left the Sea Org and was forced to endure endless months of security checks (sec checks) on an e-meter (a glorified lie detector test), her husband divorced her and she was disconnected from her mother, sister and brother. Astra was declared a suppressive person and ex-communicated from the Church. Oh and they tried to give her a bill for $89,000 for all her unpaid “auditing and sec check” sessions. A small price to pay for her daughter Kate, now the life and joy for Astra and grandfather Lawrence.
In many ways, Astra becoming pregnant with Kate wasn’t just a blessing of life’s greatest joy, a precious child, but also her escape out of a dangerous, oppressive, fascistic cult. The same can not be said for the van-loads of Sea Org girls carted to Planned Parenthood by the Church to have these “unwanted” pregnancies take care of. There’s no time for parenting when you have a planet to clear. The life of countless unborns is a small, insignificant price to pay when you are saving the world from the evils of psychiatry right?
I just want to state for the record, I am pro-Choice. This means I feel under pretty strict circumstances (no partial birth or late term abortions unless absolutely medically necessary to save a woman’s life) abortion should be legal, and with our own Supreme Court drawing the line as to when life begins at somewhere around 20 weeks, that should leave plenty of time to decide the best course of action for a woman to make about how to proceed with her pregnancy. Abortion should be your last choice, but it should be YOUR choice to make. It should never be forced. That’s even more wrong that banning abortions outright, and I feel *really* strongly about being pro-Choice.
Where’s the outrage? Where are these religious-right folks when it comes to a fellow “religion” not only condoning abortion, but practically forcing it on its members? Oh the hypocrisy is astounding, and the cowardice stifling.
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We have countless ways of preventing pregnancy and if utilized there would be no need for so many abortions. Our society would be much better off if that responsibility were exercised, rather than abortion used as a selfish way of escaping what is, in truth, careless and reckless behavior.
They say that it is a woman’s right to choose.
To choose what? To steal a life from another human being who doesn’t have a choice?
Comment by angela — May 6, 2008 @ 1:32 pm
This is just so disgusting and illogical. Coercing a woman into having an abortion using the threat of excommunication, isolation, and spiritual damnation! And for what purpose? Scientologists boast how they are expanding rapidly and how they purchase new buildings all the time - so shouldn’t there be plenty of facilities and resources to look after the next generation?
Comment by StopScientology'sAbuses — May 6, 2008 @ 1:35 pm
To angela, Astra Woodcraft never wanted an abortion, she wanted to have a child. The ‘rule’ that no children are allowed came in after she had joined the Sea Org. Ms Woodcraft was married for years already, and contraception doesn’t work 100% of the time due to human error or otherwise, so I don’t think “careless and reckless behavior” was a actor in this case.
Comment by StopScientology'sAbuses — May 6, 2008 @ 1:40 pm
*factor, (not actor)
Comment by StopScientology'sAbuses — May 6, 2008 @ 1:41 pm
@angela “Our society would be much better off if that responsibility were exercised, rather than abortion used as a selfish way of escaping what is, in truth, careless and reckless behavior.”
Angela, you appear to miss that this story is about forced abortion, not contraception.
Ms. Woodcraft never considered aborting her child, and conceived her child in wedlock. In fact, the COS never disclosed their forced abortion policy to her before she was pregnant. Thus, you appear to be arguing that every mother should have practiced contraception, and no one should have children. Troll?
Comment by AnonymousNow — May 6, 2008 @ 2:29 pm
Of course, this is an opportunity for the right to lifers and pro-choicers to join forces. In fact, if everyone puts their money where their mouth is, both sides are duty bound to protest the COS in this regard.
The COS is both anti-life, and anti-choice. The conduct of the COS never ceases to amaze me in its arrogant disregard of all common incidents of humanity… self determination, truth, family, life, justice. They seek to destroy humanity on the subatomic level.
Comment by AnonymousNow — May 6, 2008 @ 2:35 pm
In case anyone’s looking for more confirmation on the Freewinds asbestos case here’s a local carribean newspaper.
http://bonairereporter.com/news/008pdfs/newcurrent.pdf
Relevant article is on page 8.
The Freewinds is the scientology cruise liner which Astra’s father worked. Not only did the the COS know about the asbestos they covered it up for over 21 years.
http://www.lermanet.com/scientology/LawrenceWoodcraftAsbestos.htm
Special thanx to
http://sydney.indymedia.org.au/story/scientology-asbestos-ship-hazard-coverup-exposed-thousands-risk
Just making sure everyone remembers this because it is huge.
Comment by Failship Freewinds — May 6, 2008 @ 3:26 pm
Dear Angela,
From what I understand, cause I have studied up on it, is that they don’t get paid enough money to even buy toiletries, let alone birth control.
Comment by tuffyt — May 6, 2008 @ 3:46 pm
They are not allowed time off to get birth control either, and Astra also talked about how there is virtually no sex education given to these teenaged couples. So even if they can get their hands on a condom, they might not know how to use it properly.
I would guess that a lot of improvised (ie, destined to fail) rhythm method is being used by couples in the Sea Org. Either that, or the withdrawal method.
Comment by anon1957 — May 6, 2008 @ 4:00 pm
Well written and moving as always. Great piece D!
Comment by Anonymous — May 6, 2008 @ 4:40 pm
Angela Gupta, is that you? Shouldn’t you be spamming ARS with your “kill the psychiatrists” BS?
Comment by anonymous — May 6, 2008 @ 5:12 pm
Nothing says a “religion” for the whole family like forced abortions.
Comment by Rachel — May 6, 2008 @ 5:41 pm
We are Scientology, we are the experts on the mind and WE decide who is to procreate, not our squibs! If the mating is not pleasurable to us then the birth must be terminated.
Comment by Terryeo [TM] — May 6, 2008 @ 5:43 pm
I don’t know who the hell made these orders. I read Dianetics and it specifically said that abortion could cause harmful damage to the thetan of the unborn baby, and should not be done. It is ridiculous that these so called Sea Org people would have ordered this, if it is true. I would like to find out, from Astra, if who made this policy. Cause it sure as hell was not L.Ron.
Comment by Cromwell — May 6, 2008 @ 6:16 pm
Cromwell–this is Yet Another Example of David Miscavige’s “alterations” to the tech and policies of Hubbard. This policy was put in place a few years after Miscavige took the reins of RTC/CoS.
Comment by Anonymous — May 6, 2008 @ 6:34 pm
@Cromwell,
It’s known that L. Ron Hubbard was obsessed with abortions, and that he forced one of his wives to abort her children.
Comment by 9 — May 6, 2008 @ 6:43 pm
hubbard was no better than d miscavige. hubbard reportedly practiced the occult tried to bring about the anti christ. how humane could that kind of person be he was a deviant charachter.
Comment by judy — May 6, 2008 @ 7:25 pm
Absolutely right on Hubbard’s obsession with abortions. I’ve read a lot of the nut’s ramblings and he couldn’t shut up about it. In his deluded mind everyone’s problems date back to their recollections of their mother’s attempting to abort them.
As for tiny DM, he doesn’t want the slaves having children because they won’t be able to continue working 20 hours a day with a child to care for.
Comment by Rachel — May 6, 2008 @ 9:10 pm
Now, this is what i don’t like, you are quoting stuff, that somebody said, and later detracted. His son said that he witnessed him performing an abortion on his wife, but later detracted that along with other things, and admitted that he lied and caused him and his dad much pain. This is when I think it gets out of hands, when you spread these kind of lies around. So please don’t post that. Dianetics talks about abortion and engrams, and says that this should not be done or attempted because it can cause severe engrams in the child when it grows up. Don’t believe all this heresay and be a fantatic and believe every single thing out on these sites. Some of it can be true, but all of it is not. I want to know from Astra, who specifically wrote these orders, extremely wrong, and L.Ron says more about it in Dianetics.
Comment by Cromwell — May 6, 2008 @ 9:39 pm
David Miscavige, is a god damn moron, If he ordered this. I say, dethrone David Miscavige at the least. He should not be in his position, he had obviously know real knowledge of Dianetics and Scientology to be making these kinds of decisions or orders. I think that perhaps many of the problems of the present day CoS are his, if this is true. Scientology the technology can be preserved , but not in the hands of fools who make such egregious decisions, and now all Scientologist are being thought of as evil people, because of these individuals who didn’t practice Scientology correctly.
Comment by Cromwell — May 6, 2008 @ 9:44 pm
i think we have to make it clear this is not a faith or religion. they only call it thought for monetary purposes. one’s faith should set you free scientology does the complete opposite.
Comment by nga — May 7, 2008 @ 12:37 am
The order forbidding Sea Org members from having children was signed off by Guillame Leserve, ED Int. Though as we have learned, he and the other Int execs are all fronting for Miscavige. I doubt there is a written order about abortions. But with a little Scientology tech applied you can cut off all options but the desired one, without actually ordering it.
“Of all the cults scientology is by far the most dangerous. On average it takes twelve years to recover from it, if you survive.”
Margaret Singer. (Much respected authority on Cults.)
Comment by Randomx — May 7, 2008 @ 12:51 am
“On September 28, 1986, Gillaume Leserve, the Executive Director International (”ED Int”), put out an order binding on all Sea Org members. Within the Sea Org, these binding orders were called Flag orders. The September 28, 1986 Flag Order No. 3905 forbade Sea Org members from having any more new children. The reason given by ED Int. was that the Sea Org simply did not have the time, money and resources to raise children properly. In the event Sea Org members elected to disobey this Flag Order, they would be exiled to a non Sea Org Scientology organization of the Class IV level until the Child reached 6 years of age. Once the unauthorized child achieved 6 years of age, the parents could return to the Sea Org.”
— Mary Tabayoyon’s sworn affidavit
Comment by Randomx — May 7, 2008 @ 1:18 am
Hubbard WAS extremely against abortion, in fact he said anyone having an abortion was a 1.1 (this is a horrible insult). The ‘no children’ rule was put in place because children were not being looked after in the Sea Org. The correct response, (whether you use Scientology ethics or just plain common sense) would have been to improve childcare, not ban children.
Comment by StopScientology'sAbuses — May 7, 2008 @ 1:25 am
What a pile of misunderstanding. Lulz.
Comment by Terryeo — May 7, 2008 @ 1:52 am
Opps.
What a pile of understanding. LULZ.
Comment by Terryeo — May 7, 2008 @ 2:19 am
Cromwell surely meant “retracted” instead of “detracted”. Right?
Thank God Astra’s out. I hope she continues to find happiness these days.
Comment by Joanie — May 7, 2008 @ 4:18 am
” Where’s the outrage? Where are these religious-right folks when it comes to a fellow “religion” not only condoning abortion, but practically forcing it on its members? Oh the hypocrisy is astounding, and the cowardice stifling ”
Fellow religion?! Scientology isn’t even christian. If you are asking where the christians are….THEY ARE EVERYWHERE! They have been ministering to any and all who ask for their help. The “pro-choice” crowd does their best however to dissuade these girls and women from going to pro-lifers for help!
To make such an accusation while at he same time embracing the “pro-choice” schtick is indeed the height of hypocrisy!
Comment by Barb — May 7, 2008 @ 8:02 am
I’m not religious, but am a Christian and I am outraged.
Comment by tuffyt — May 7, 2008 @ 8:46 am
I can be PRO-CHOICE Barb and still have posted this because the key word in there is CHOICE, these women are given two choices, abort or be thrown out like the trash. What the hell are you talking about my hypocrisy you chicken? If you are so upset about abortion, how about you do SOMETHING about it rather than point fingers. At least I am bringing attention to the issue, while you are just whining.
I haven’t seen ONE report of Christians stepping in to help these girls or anyone whose being abused by this cult. Where’s all this neighborly love that’s supposed to be extended to help these people.
Shame on you. I guess because it’s hard and stuff, oh and because Tom Cruise is so cute, and Oprah says Scientology is ok that you don’t need to get involved.
Comment by D — May 7, 2008 @ 9:13 am
i dont believe that anyone has a right to dictate what i do with my body. if i want to vacuum out a clump of cells, i will do so. that is my right. until they give that clump of cells a title and its own set of rights, it doesnt have any. end of story.
that said, i cant imagine becoming pregnant and not even having the OPTION of maintaining the lifestyle (friends, living situation) if i wanted to keep the child. there is a level of “wrongness” there that i cant even begin to address.
Comment by meh — May 7, 2008 @ 9:39 am
Hi Dawn,
I am a Christian and I am pro-life. I have also been reading your posts about the dangerous cult of Scientology and I commend you for exposing these abuses.
That said, I think it is a bit unfair to assume it is hypocrisy or cowardice that explains why pro-lifers haven’t said more about forced abortions in Scientology. After all, they have spoken up about forced abortions in China. The reason is, very simply, that they just don’t know this is going on. Most people just think Scientology is just a kooky cult for Hollywood people. They have no idea what the Sea Org is, much less knowing that they force women to have abortions.
I am posting about this and linking to your post on my blog. My blog is very small, but it is on the Pro-Life Blogs Aggregator, so maybe more people will see it and pick up on it that way. Also, in my post, I suggest that crisis pregnancy centers in cities where there are a lot of Sea Org people make a special attempt to reach out to these women.
Most social conservatives I know have very little use for Oprah, Tom Cruise or Scientology. They just don’t know how horrible this cult really is. And, like I said, I’m trying to get the word out in my small way.
Comment by Susan B. — May 7, 2008 @ 9:49 am
wow - I’m bummed out that people are now attacking Christians as not helping these girls out just because a report hasn’t been wrote on it. what an assumption.
Comment by tuffyt — May 7, 2008 @ 10:34 am
Report #1 from a christian:
I pray for them. If I had time to travel, I would go find them and help. If I had money to give them, I would sent it. I tell whomever I can about the atrocities of the CO$ so they can pray for them too. I wish I could do more.
Comment by tuffyt — May 7, 2008 @ 10:55 am
A Catholic Call to Arms: Coerced Abortions in Scientology
http://forums.catholic.com/showthread.php?t=237737&page=2
As a victim of scientology, I heard about the thread here and wanted to support the people telling the truth about this cult. I was a 19 year old college student when I found scientology books in the religion section of my university library.
I think many of us remember being 19 and off to college and wondering who we were and what we wanted to be. Most of us wanted to save the world or at least make a difference and improve things.
Cults like scientology prey on our best young people, usually they have recruitment centers on or around college campuses. In my opinion cults like scientology are more dangerous to “good” kids than drug dealers or bars.
Here is one sad story of the 19 year old daughter of a Norwegian official who happened by a campus recruit center near her dormitory in France last month:
Took her life after Scientology test
http://ocmb.xenu.net/ocmb/viewtopic….ht=kaja#313252
Forced Abortions One Of The Many Abuses From The Church Of Scientology
http://glosslip.com/2008/05/06/force…h-scientology/
There is so much evidence…please look and protect your own children.
Comment by XSO — May 7, 2008 @ 11:15 am
I am NOT attacking Christians per se, seeing as I am one, all I am trying to point out is that Scientology’s vicious abuses are being ignored or given a free pass simply because see they are seen as a “kooky” religion and therefore people assume it’s not a threat. As far as I am concerned, Jewish people, Muslims, Buddhists, Atheists, Agnostics AND Christians should be upset with what’s going on in the CoS. I feel like I am beating my head against a wall and NO ONE CARES except those in Anonymous and long time critics. Surely someone with more power than myself could step up and do something.
People like Oprah, who pretends to preach enlightenment, should be ASHAMED of legitimizing something as disturbing and perverse as Scientology has become.
THIS IS NOT A RELIGION, THIS IS A CULT.
Ugh, I give up. Why bother, no one gives a shit.
Comment by D — May 7, 2008 @ 11:21 am
Dear Dawn:
It is very frustrating.
Peace,
tuffy
Comment by tuffyt — May 7, 2008 @ 11:26 am
Right to choose vs. Pro-choice
Regarding abortion: I believe we were all born with the right to choose - even things that are wrong. That is real freedom that God gives us - it has nothing to do with man’s laws. It’s a God-given right that we are not robots and have to do what He says is right or wrong. It’s always our choice.
However, I would not consider myself Pro-choice as that means agreeing that it is someone’s right to murder another.
Clumps of cells? we were fearfully and wonderfully made, though we don’t look anything like a human baby at first.
and just because I believe this does not mean I don’t take into account any tragic situations and not feel compassion for any woman’s situation, as long as it’s not just plain selfishness.
Comment by tuffyt — May 7, 2008 @ 11:40 am
Target: stay on it.
This really shouldn’t be a sounding board for debating pro-life vs. pro-choice. Especially considering that the article is about forced abortions. Dawn may have lent her alignment on the issue to the article, but it was intended to add weight/impact to her opposition to the Sea Org’s forced abortions. A pro-choicer outraged at people getting abortions. Get it?
The amount of overreaction often seen on the comment boards here makes me wonder about the reading comprehension of some of the posters.
And now, to be a total hypocrit:
tuffyt wrote:
“However, I would not consider myself Pro-choice as that means agreeing that it is someone’s right to murder another”
No, that would be agreeing that it is someone’s right to choose whether or not to murder another. There are consequences to making poor choices in life whether enforced by man’s laws or a god’s. I don’t condone murder, but the truth is, everyone has the right to choose whether or not to commit murder. To take away any choice, right or wrong, good or evil, would be an assault on free will. A thoughtcrime perhaps. A forced abortion even.
Comment by Anon, Anon, My Boyfriend's Back! — May 7, 2008 @ 12:33 pm
I think you’re nittpicking.
and saying people are overreacting to something they feel strong about is denying someone’s opinion to be expressed.
issues bring up other issues
forced abortion talk brings up abortion
Comment by tuffyt — May 7, 2008 @ 12:57 pm
yeah, forced abortion talks bring up abortion, but anon is right; fuck our personal beliefs. fuck them, if they take the focus off of a dangerous organization preying on young people. fuck them, if they make us behave selfishly when people ALL OVER THE WORLD are suffering at the hands of this cult.
i will gladly stand up beside someone who believes my zygote is a bona fide human, if it means stopping the human rights abuses that the cult of scientology has been able to get away with for so long. i apologize to anyone that my “clump of cells” comment might have riled up, and i remind you all that we are on the same side here.
Comment by meh — May 7, 2008 @ 2:13 pm
agreed
Comment by tuffyt — May 7, 2008 @ 2:19 pm
Whether you are pro-life or pro-choice, it doesn’t matter in the slightest. Imagine wanting to start a family, choosing to bring a life into this world and having everyone you knew try and coerce you into getting rid of it. Astra wanted a baby, the cult of Scientology tried to take it away from her. Your personal outlook on the issue are irrelevant, NO ONE supports forced abortion.
We have a policy in Anonymous. “Stay on target.” We are everyone of every age from every background with every political opinion you can manage. I stand shoulder to shoulder with the most conservative of people in the country on one side, and the most liberal on the other. People who would normally disagree and argue about EVERYTHING have come together to protest this cult because we see things like this and we know that no matter what you believe, it’s just wrong to treat people that way.
To my fellow posters in the comments, you should be angry. Not at the opposing view of abortion, whatever that would be for you, but that this young woman (and many other like her) was harassed, threatened, and psychologically abused for deciding to have a child and leave a cult. Turn your outrage to the people who have made forced abortions a policy in a “religion” and all of the people who have suffered because of it. There’ll be time enough after to debate pro-life vs pro-choice stances when we stop the FORCED abortions first.
And Dawn, you’re a hero and people care deeply that you’re brave enough to run stories like these. You have my sincerest thanks for all your hard work! (And we love you too K!) Don’t just take my word for it:
“I am trying to catch up on all the other shows that are currently kicking major azz in the Blogcritics Radio Network! Much props to Glosslip for their amazing shows on Scientology and the controversy surrounding the church! The shows on BTR and Blogcritics Radio Network get better and better; with BlogTalkRadio being added to iTunes radio channel, it’s only a matter of time before they will be available wherever you go!”
^^^
http://blogcritics.org/archives/2008/05/07/100801.php
Blog Critics Magazine
Comment by Hubbard-Telescope — May 7, 2008 @ 2:35 pm
I retrospect I should have left my opinions out of it, but I didn’t want to send out the wrong impression that I oppose the use of legal and early abortions. I wouldn’t encourage it and it’s never an easy decision to make, or at least it shouldn’t be, but that really isn’t the issue. The issue is these women are given so few choices as it is, being forced to have an abortion is so morally wrong it’s inconceivable. They should be provided with reasonable options for birth control, but the CoS according to Astra only allots 1 dollar a day for all meals for each Sea Org member, it’s quite doubtful they would even consider something as simple as condoms or other forms of BC.
These poor women. Let’s all join forces to wipe out one abomination at a time, and the target here is the Church of Scientology.
Comment by D — May 7, 2008 @ 4:33 pm
I didn’t miss the story here and I completely understand that Ms. Woodcraft was in horrific situation. I commend her for standing strong and finding a way to keep her child. My comments were actually directed on the latter part of the story and basically the mainstream debate on the abortion issue. They were my comments and thoughts which everyone will not agree with. That’s the beauty of free speech, right? I despise the CoS and how they manipulate people and this story just proves why it’s a cult.
Comment by angela — May 7, 2008 @ 4:51 pm
Where’s the outrage from the religious right? Here’s some! But when a “church” is so secretive and heavey-handed that forced abortions infrequently come to light, you can hardly blame us for not knowing. The pro-life movement has been fighting forced abortions in China for years. You paint with a pretty broad brush.
If you want to know what’s already being done about forced abortions by the pro-life movement, check here: http://www.unfairchoice.info/.
Comment by Michele Shoun — May 8, 2008 @ 12:51 pm
It’s interesting that you would call your situation a forced abortion, when I submit to you that the large majority of ALL abortions in this country would be called “forced abortion” by your definition. In actuality, what you described was “coerced abortion” and goes on every day in this country. Pregnant women are threatened (spoken and unspoken threats) with everything from being a social outcast to outright physical abuse and death if they don’t get an abortion. You think you’re the only one who faced the choice between abortion and a complete upheaval of the only life you knew? How ridiculous. Women face the loss of their careers, their educations, their families, and more every day because of unplanned pregnancy, yet when crisis pregnancy centers (hello??? mostly run by CHRISTIANS) try to intervene and offer support, they are maligned and the Planned Parenthoods of the world scream bloody murder (pun intended) that they are misleading women.
How you can continue to call yourself pro-choice after your experience simply shows me that your time in the Cult of Scientology and their teachings of self-worship have still got a hold on you.
If you think Scientology is the only place where abortions are forced/coerced in the United States, you’ve got a lot to learn, my dear.
Comment by Michelle — May 8, 2008 @ 3:57 pm
Dear Dawn:
You’re a christian = you should definately oppose the use of legal and early abortions.
A clean sterile murder room - I don’t think Jesus will understand.
Respectfully,
tuffyt
Dear Hubbard=telescope
you are very wise . . .
please, this is not enturbulation. org so stay-on-target isn’t required, unless Dawn says so
we have to talk about this somewhere and I hope we still can
even though I think we should move on . . .
much love,
tuffyt
Comment by tuffyt — May 8, 2008 @ 4:51 pm
Who are you referring to Michelle #47?
Astra didn’t say it was forced, I DID. When offered two choices which are no choices at all, that’s forced, you can call coerced if you want, but to me, she had no choice and therefore she was forced. Fortunately she was brave enough to make the decision which most suited her moral code.
I for one believe only God has the right to pass judgment in decisions such as abortion, therefore I am not going to engage in this debate.
I would like to stay on target though and not get into a debate on abortion except to say that when you remove choices for people, deaths occur. Period. End of story.
Comment by D — May 8, 2008 @ 5:02 pm
D
I was referring to you, then. What makes you think that the large majority of abortions in this country are not in this same vein as Astra’s experience?
I am not attempting to argue the morality of abortion itself. That is for another thread. But, for you to call yourself pro-choice, then express indignance at Astra’s experience without acknowledging the very real coercion that goes on every day in this country is disingenuous. Whenever legislation is proposed that would make abortion coercion a criminal offense, suddenly those who are “champions of choice” are not so gung-ho. Why, when the very real problem of abortion coercion is addressed, does the pro-choice crowd start hopping up and down and stomping their feet?
Comment by Michelle — May 8, 2008 @ 5:27 pm
Michelle–While I can appreciate where you’re coming from, I think you need to recognize a key difference here:
Strong societal/cultural ‘encouragement’ to avoid pregnancy (ie, get an abortion) is indeed something to examine closely. But ultimately, the woman is given the same choice every prospective parent is when a child is about to be introduced to their life and all the comcommitant changes that brings.
However, in the Sea Org there is INSTITUTIONAL policy towards mandating that abortions occur. People who are in the Sea Org won’t just have to face condescending criticism or other social pressures. They have literally handed over every part of their lives to the Sea Org, and likely have cut ties to external support structures (friends/family). In many/most cases, they have no one to fall back on–or at least, that is what the institution is designed to impress upon them.
So the choice is far more weightier here–abort, or lose your entire life with nothing to fall back on. Those that make the second choice and strike out on their own are incredibly brave.
I’m not saying that this does not happen outside of the Sea Org (re losing your entire way of life/getting cut off from it), but there is a big difference between asshole family/friends and an organization where such behavior is the expected default policy. One is decidedly unfortunate and very hurtful when it happens, and the other is calculated evil.
Comment by Anonymous — May 8, 2008 @ 6:10 pm
The discussion IS getting off-track.
No matter one’s belief system, one should have the right to choose that belief system.
Scientology takes away your free will to decide, to determine, to think for yourself. You must toe THEIR line, or suffer the consequences.
THAT is the bottom line in this story.
Comment by k — May 8, 2008 @ 6:11 pm
D,
What about the thousands of minor girls who are forced by their parents or by their sexual molesters to get abortions? Do you also denounce that? Please don’t say that it doesn’t happen…I knew a girl in my high school freshman class 23 years ago who was forced to have an abortion at 5 months after hiding her pregnancy up until then. Don’t tell me it doesn’t happen. See http://www.exposeplannedparenthood.org for audio of Planned Parenthood counseling underage pregnant girls on how to get around the mandatory reporting laws for statutory rape.
I would venture to say that, for all of the racket you’re making about this Scientology forced abortion against Astra, you would NOT support legislation to criminalize such action for the general public. Correct me if I’m wrong. I mean, especially since we’ve gone so far in our society to prevent the opposite, which would be parent’s PREVENTING their underage daughter from getting an abortion. We’re so dead-set against a parent preventing their daughter’s abortion, that we actually in the majority of states allow her to get the abortion without even NOTIFYING her parents.
Spousal murder is also the leading cause of death among pregnant women in this country. Do you think that’s an accident? There is definitely a pattern in this country of forced/coerced abortion that the pro-abortion lobby is spending millions to hide from the public. They don’t want people to make that connection.
Your false indignation is more than a bit amusing.
Comment by Michelle — May 8, 2008 @ 7:48 pm
correction: the link to the planned parenthood exposed site is:
http://www.plannedparenthoodexposed.com
Comment by Michelle — May 8, 2008 @ 8:01 pm
I can only fight one atrocity at a time Michelle. Come back when the Church of Scientology has been dismantled, David Miscavige brought to justice and the millions of dollars of ill-gotten gains are returned to defrauded CoS members.
Until then, I will remain on target, fighting against the abuses of the CoS, including their official policy against newborns for Sea Org members. If you don’t want to get involved, that is your choice. See there, you have a choice, unlike what was offered to Astra when she discovered she was pregnant while in the Sea Org.
Comment by D — May 8, 2008 @ 8:19 pm
You know what, Michelle?
I’m pro-life myself, but frankly your nasty attitude and snarky remarks are what gives those of us who believe so a bad name. That, and your refusal to stay on topic, which is forced abortions in the CoS. Not any other organization. I’m sure there are messageboards for all the other things you’ve mentioned. Feel free to visit them.
Whether you agree or disagree with Dawn’s stance on abortions in general is not relevant to the point that is being presented in the article. You’re indignant about something that isn’t even in the article and then you’re attacking Dawn over it. It’s distracting and, honestly, it’s accomplishing nothing.
Comment by k — May 8, 2008 @ 9:37 pm
Michelle, you are angry, understandably, but you are taking it out on Dawn and everyone who disagrees with you - Please be kind and discuss, not attack.
I encourage everyone to check out the Planned Parenthood organization, it’s almost as bad at deceiving and destroying women’s and babie’s lives as Scientology is.
Jesus loves the little children
tuffyt
Comment by tuffyt — May 9, 2008 @ 8:37 am
Michele,
Nice touch twisting pro-choice into pro-abortion, btw. I think that is the fundamental misunderstanding. I am pro-choice but, for myself, if my girlfriend were to get pregnant, I wouldn’t want her to get an abortion. Therein lies the beauty, Michele. It’s not impossible for one to be pro-choice and be opposed to forced/coerced abortion.
Pro-choice is just that: pro-choice. Instead of imposing my PERSONAL moral objections to abortion on others, I believe it is a woman/couple’s right to choose what is right for them. I’m not them. I don’t know their situation. I can’t judge it. I am resposible for my life and my soul and my salvation (speaking agnostically). Not theirs.
Bad choices are made every day. You made one by deciding to troll this board. Successfully, I might add.
P.S. Speaking of painting with broad brushes:
“You’re a christian = you should definately oppose the use of legal and early abortions”
Let me fix that for you:
You’re a Christian = you should definitely support the use of the greatest gift God gave us which is free will.
In summation, I personally do not agree with abortion, but I support your right to make that decision for yourself. I also support your right to voice your opinion. However, my support ends at the exact moment you try to stifle my rights and impose your personal beliefs on me.
Have a nice day.
Comment by Anon, Anon, My Boyfriend's Back! — May 9, 2008 @ 11:35 am
I fed the troll…and cocks.
Comment by Anon, Anon, My Boyfriend's Back! — May 9, 2008 @ 11:36 am
Again, confusing our God given freedom with “legal” freedoms.
Right to choose - always there, wether there is a law that provides a clean sterile room to help the murder along is totally another issue (Pro-choice)
they need to be separate
my quotes do not need fixing, thank you
Comment by tuffyt — May 9, 2008 @ 1:01 pm
ps where is people’s ball?
either your for it or against it
for it in a general population but against it for anyone you car about?
hypocritical thinking
Comment by tuffyt — May 9, 2008 @ 1:02 pm
sorry - care about
Comment by tuffyt — May 9, 2008 @ 1:03 pm
tuffyt
Pro choice, in my case, means I am pro whatever choice a person choses to make. I have friends who have had abortions and respect their decision to do so. I would never have one unless the situation was dire. Does this make me a “bad person”? In pro life’s eyes yes, because I support a woman’s right to choose. AAMBB had a very valid point that you chose to shirk away from, Christians should support free will, God’s greatest gift of all. He gave you the right to chose your life and what you make it. You should redirect the hypocritical thinking back to yourself because you certainly harbor vast reserves.
Comment by squishers — May 10, 2008 @ 3:17 am
personally, i am pro-choice, and i think that no one has the right to criticize women for whatever they choose - whether they get an abortion or not is not really my problem, nor is it anyone else’s. that, to me, is the essence of being pro-choice.
however, if i were to be presented with such a choice, i’m not sure if i would be able to go through abortion (then again, this depends on whatever situation i am in) because it goes against my own personal beliefs/philosophy.
forcing these thoughts on people is wrong, and, again, i’ll bring up a point that has been brought up before: we all have the right to make choices, be it on lifestyle, political stances, set of beliefs, etc.
i am outraged at the so-called “church” of scientology because they strip away this right to choose for oneself, forcing them to do their bidding.
Comment by 9 — May 10, 2008 @ 9:27 am
squishy, Please re-read my posts
as I’ve tried to point out from the beginning:
God’s gives us the right to choose, the free will to make good or bad decisions. This I believe.
God’s laws protect us from other’s bad decisions that could harm us and God’s laws also hold us accountable to not harm others with any of our decisions. This I believe.
Man’s laws should follow, and generally do, but . . .
If you are a Christian, God’s laws should trump man’s in every moral decision you make or in any moral view you have. If you don’t agree with God’s and you are a Christian, then ask Him to help you understand His Holy view. That is a major part in your faith - trusting that God is the ultimate wisdom and humbling to it.
the very thing that I’m trying to explain is what I’m accused of shirking away from?
can’t you see the difference between the freedom to choose to have an abortion and the actual reality of the act of an abortion?
Roe v. Wade did not give us the freedom to make this choice, women made it all throughout history. It was their God given right to choose. Do you think God didn’t know when He gave us that right that we would make wrong decisions? He still wanted us free.
Roe v. Wade provided a clean, sterile environment to murder innocent children and mentally fuck-up women for the rest of their life. Honestly, do you know anyone who has gotten over their abortion, really?
Actually, Roe v. Wade helped DM and the Sea Org. with the ability to bring up, coerce and enforce abortions. It certainly made it easy for our underage daughters to get them without our knowledge.
For the love of God, choose life always.
If not for that, for truth’s sake, don’t make murder easy. I know of at least one women who repeatedly had abortions as her method of birth control. I think that is one too many. Some of her babies were probably female.
“bad person”???????
no, bad choice
should I support a pedophile’s decision, how about a rapist’s - it’s his right to choose to do the act or not.
thank God there are laws to protect us from abusing our freedom. Thank God there are laws to protect us from pediphile’s & rapist’s horrible acts, I would also thank God if there was a law protecting us from anyone who would perform the act of abortion.
and if the essence of pro-choice is not caring, well, where’s your love and compassion?
Comment by tuffyt — May 10, 2008 @ 1:36 pm
tuffyt
I have more love and compassion than you can possibly fathom. I am overly empathetic and hurt with the way the world is turning. I still do not support overturning a decision that would have drastic repercussions such as Roe v Wade. I agree that abortion should not be used as birth control. Obviously the people who use it as so make poor choices time and again out of stupidity or ignorance. Simply because I disagree with those people does not mean I think abortion should not be legal at all.
I am not a Christian and will not go into the long winded reason of why I am not. Simply put, I was raised Christian and had a falling out so to speak at an early age. My hometown was a hot bed of fanatics who did not hesitate to tell me how myself and my family would be burning in hell. What religion am I? None. I choose to be a moral person with a strong spiritual core. You could try to argue that a morally sound person wouldn’t support people’s right to choose death but I will support a woman who wants to have an abortion in a clean sterile environment, rather than go back to performing them in alleyways and other shady places. That is where my caring lies. Caring for the person who makes that decision and not condemning them to a possible death.
As to answer your point about supporting a rapist or pedophiles choice to do there horrible acts, we are not speaking of those heinous acts. No, we should not allow things like that to be done. I do not lump people who have abortions in with those types of people. I do not agree with CoS and their stance of forced abortions. It is no one but the mother of the unborn child choice to decide that very serious decision.
I also don’t expect pro life to see any valid points from the pro choice side. It would make these debates a whole lot easier if both could agree to disagree. I do agree with some of your points, but the total dismissal of any pro choice’s standpoint keeps this stuck in the endless circle going nowhere.
Comment by squishers — May 10, 2008 @ 7:13 pm
k here.
Sorry to everyone who is attempting to keep their comments ON TOPIC (which is forced abortions in the CoS, NOT abortions in general), but since there are a few who simply cannot figure out what the topic is, I must close the comments.
Dawn and I have asked for people to please stay on topic and people can’t seem to do that. No matter one’s personal stance on abortion, you cannot attack one another over things that are not even in the article. I asked nicely and people didn’t pay attention so I must now take drastic measures.
Comment by k — May 10, 2008 @ 9:07 pm