11/12/2008 (3:02 pm)

82 Comments »

1. [...] Covers The Register/Amazon Book Pulling Incident Woop! There it is! GlossLip Tom Cruise Meets With Amazon, Now Amazon UK Pulling Scientology Expose From Site - Coincide… Beware: Nazi Mod. Banhammers everywhere. After namefagging Scilons here: [...]

   Pingback by Glosslip Covers The Register/Amazon Book Pulling Incident - Why We Protest | Activism Forum — November 12, 2008 @ 3:05 pm

 

2. To anyone who still believes that Tommy Girl is actually salvagable as a normal human being, and that things can go back to that fuzzy-huggy-bunny-place where we can all enjoy his acting again: PLEASE READ THIS ARTICLE AGAIN AND AGAIN.

   Until Cruise stands at a pulpit and publically disavoys the cult, I will boycott ALL of his entertainment vehicles. He may be richer than I am, but he honestly doesn`t seem all that smart. And an ego the size of California doesn`t make up for a glib attitude and a penchance for `social engineering` the masses by controlling the media. What a tool he is!

   Comment by terryeo — November 12, 2008 @ 3:30 pm

 

3. Why are Scientologist so against Free Speech.

   How many more people will have to die, before governments finally notice the danger of the criminal organization, and put an end to them once and for all!!!

   Scientology is a totalitarian political movement disguised as a criminal racket disguised as a cult parading as a religion hiding behind 166+ front groups.

   WE ARE ANONYMOUS
   WE ARE LEGION
   WE DO NOT FORGIVE
   WE DO NOT FORGET
   EXPECT US
   http://www.whyweprotest.net/en/

   Comment by DM Longcat — November 12, 2008 @ 4:08 pm

 

4. Anonymous member “AnonAnchovie” (real name John Duignan ) has recently published a sensationalized (and in all likelyhood fictionalized) account of this time in the Church of Scientology’s Sea Organization. The author hopes that his book, like DIANETICS, will help the reader by “providing them with a life line back to sanity.”

   “I will be doing some promotional work and events…Please buy my book, I am a poor university student and need the money.”
   His intended audience includes Anonymous members and “Freezoner” Scientologists:

   “I love you all, even the Freezoners…Thank you Anonymous for who you are, what you represent and your goodness, thank you from empowering me, I hope you enjoy the book, it is in part, dedicated to you. ”

   Predictably, John has made it clear that his intention is to “move on” with his life now that his book has been published. Obviously, the only relationship he wants with Anonymous members and other Anti-Scientologists, is one with their money:

   http://anonymous-is-a-hategroup.blogspot.com/2008/10/making-money-off-anonymous.html

   Comment by Tom Newton — November 12, 2008 @ 6:29 pm

 

5. Nice try Tom. The cult’s repeated attempts to stifle free speech will guarantee bigger sales for this book.
   Remember the South Park episode? The leaked Cruise video? You never learn.

   As for ‘hate group’, the only hate group is the cult of $cientology. Your attempts to smear anon, like you, are fail.

   Comment by Rachel — November 12, 2008 @ 6:47 pm

 

6. Yes, I believe he is still salvageable as a human being. Pretty much everybody is capable of redemption. What, is the message that everyone involved in Scientology can get out and be redeemed…oh wait, except for Tom Cruise?

   Comment by k — November 12, 2008 @ 7:12 pm

 

7. Cruise one again has gone too far. Yet another example of Scientology squashing a book because they are afraid of the truth coming out. This only proves their guilt even further, and how dillusional Tom Cruise is as far as what should be censored in this world. And screw him for giving them a private screening of his new movie. What the HELL does his movie have to do with ANYTHING?

   I am asking everyone to boycott that piece of CRAP film.
   I hope it fills the bargian bins to the brim by January.

   What right do they have to silence this author? It is John’s own account of his 22 year life in hell as a Sea Org member. WHATS THE PROBLEM???

   Amazon should be ashamed of themselves. Do they not know of the many pending lawsuits against this cult and Cruise? Don’t they care what people will think of them? Are they on the cult’s payroll??
   It seems kinda suspicious, as it keeps happening time and time again.

   I think anyone concerned should write Amazon UK and ask for an explanation. It may not help get the book back on Amazon UK, but at a time when sales are slumping everywhere, maybe they won’t want to hear how disgruntled their customers and potential new customers are about this cesnorship.

   This is a very SAD situation, very sad indeed… and this cesnorship crap has to stop! This is 2008!

   I myself have decided to boycott Amazon unti they carry this book.

   Comment by Scientology Silences Critics! — November 12, 2008 @ 7:49 pm

 

8. LIVE Internet Radio show TONIGHT WED 11/12/08
   Spread it around if you can
   Hey D.
   I’ll be back

   http://www.blogtalkradio.com/Michael-Willis/2008/11/13/SciFIEnotlogy-Part-5

   Comment by DM Longcat — November 12, 2008 @ 8:41 pm

 

9. LIVE Internet Radio show TONIGHT WED 11/12/08
   Spread it around if you can
   Hey D.
   I’ll be back….

   http://www.blogtalkradio.com/Michael-Willis/2008/11/13/SciFIEnotlogy-Part-5

   Comment by DM Longcat — November 12, 2008

   Comment by DM Longcat — November 12, 2008 @ 8:42 pm

 

10. I can’t believe they’re still getting away with this type of bullying and intimidation. It is outrageous.

    I have heard you can still get the book direct from the publisher. Merlin Publishing Ireland. I really want to read this book.

    Comment by Avery — November 12, 2008 @ 8:52 pm

 

11. Whow, U gotta bad mouth in your head, Mr. Anonie, duplicating my editing identity. Perhaps, if you look up and make sentences with your words, you’ll be able to speak your mind. Literacy gives you an option, do you see? A tool is a used item, while literacy allows a broader view and and better ability to express that view.

    Comment by Terryeo[TM] — November 12, 2008 @ 9:10 pm

 

12. “I can’t believe they’re still getting away with this type of bullying and intimidation. It is outrageous. ”

    And they call this a “religion”.

    How many “religions” have prison camps?
    A dirty tricks department?
    Demand their adherants undergo ’sec checks’?
    Demand their adherents completely cut off contact with any friends or family who questions $cientology?
    And lastly, what other “religion” extracts massive sums of money from people before they will disclose to them the basic tenents of their “faith”?

    None.

    Comment by Rachel — November 12, 2008 @ 9:26 pm

 

13. Goodluck getting money out of someone if they find out first that, Scientology is a UFO Cult, with a long and sorted history of, murder, blackmail, and extortion…

    Comment by DM Longcat — November 12, 2008 @ 9:46 pm

 

14. I want to read John Duignan’s book and NOBODY has a damn right to tell me or anyone what should or should not be available. I’ve never boycotted an actor before. But, I am done with Tom Cruise. I will never watch another film Tom Cruise is in or has anything to do with.

    Comment by Jack Jack Jr. — November 13, 2008 @ 12:01 am

 

15. I am a Scientologist. I grew up Methodist and I am part Jewish by ancestry. I also grew up in Germany (my parents were teachers there for the US military). I have been exposed to many religions, cultures, languages, and life experiences. There is so much good in the world and I’m thankful I’ve witnessed so much of it firsthand. That said, I am sick to death of the bigotry and outright lies told about my religion all over the internet with impunity. All of these generalizations about what the church does and doesn’t do are based on half truths, distortions, and outright lies. If people were slandering you personally all over the internet, don’t you think you’d do whatever you could to make sure the truth was put out there? Unless you’re in the room with someone yourself and witness a conversation or an act then you don’t know for sure what happened in that room. Why is it that one disaffected, bitter person gets to tell the “real” story of the Sea Organization when thousands of current members work their butts off every day to make the world a better place? How is it that our Volunteer Ministers were at Ground Zero after September 11th and in downtown New Orleans after Katrina and in the far east after the Tsunami, helping relief workers on a larger scale than any other private aid organization, but that never gets talked about in the media? How is that fair? Just because it sells books and makes the publisher money, or sells ads on gossip sites? In the US we have a new president, a new mandate for change and civic responsibility and civil dialogue. My church is out there getting people off drugs, making sure kids don’t take them in the first place, helping people study and learn better, helping bring attention to the International Declaration of Human Rights and educating people about what they put in their bodies in terms of medication, healthy diet, etc. I actually think that most members of Anonymous have their hearts in the right place but where exactly are they getting their information? All these generalizations and comments like “everybody knows”, this slander and twisting of facts that goes on all over the internet just boggles my mind. You act like villagers with pitchforks, egging each other on with blanket statements and conspiracy theories. HAVE MORE FAITH IN YOUR FELLOW MAN. Do you really think the hundreds of thousands of people that are an active part of my religion are all being duped? Successful artists, businesspeople, social workers, doctors, lawyers, etc. We’re all just having the wool pulled over our eyes? First generation Christians were murdered for their beliefs. Jews have been persecuted throughout their history. Christianity, Mormonism, Judaism and other major religions have all been called “cults” at various stages of their history. What does that word even mean?! The catholic church in the US has been actively covering up clergy abuse of minors for decades if not hundreds of years, was responsible for the Inquisition and other atrocities and yet you don’t hear the internet all abuzz about the ongoing “evil cult” of catholicism, and the Pope is still considered one of the holiest people on the planet. My church offers every single service a typical Christian, Jewish or Muslim church offers, all for FREE. The unique services the church offers are akin to going to university. It takes an enormous amount of resources and people to deliver this information, just as any place of higher learning has its support staff and its expenses. It takes $120,000 to graduate from Harvard. What does that diploma guarantee you? Is Harvard keeping its wisdom from the masses as a part of some power grab? Nobody’s up in arms about that. And comparing Scientology to a Methodist church, for instance, is absolutely comparing apples and oranges. Witch hunts have been famous throughout history for condemning people and groups for being different. Scientology has suffered these attacks since its inception. I urge every single person who feels they “know” all about it based on rumor, gossip, or another person’s opinion to AT LEAST check out what the church as an institution and active church members have to say about it: http://www.scientology.org. You cannot make a fair judgment on any topic unless you’ve heard both sides of the story. Our entire judicial system, the envy of the rest of the world, is based on that principle. Scientologists are not perfect, either as a group or as individuals, but Tom Cruise is a person who wants to improve the state of things, not just for himself but for others as well. He is someone who speaks his mind even when it’s unpopular and stands up for what he believes even when he is ridiculed for it. That is the very definition of integrity. He is one of the must successful entertainers of all time and now people just can’t wait to tear him down because he said “Don’t take drugs without understanding the implications, I love my new girlfriend so much I don’t know what to do with myself, and I believe that my church, my friends and my group are doing great things to improve society.” And that makes HIM the crazy one? Don’t take other people’s word for things that are important to you. Think for yourselves. And maybe try being just a little bit hopeful that there are groups out there in the world who are who they say they are and who do have altruistic motives. Cynicism and fear mongering are an easy crutch to fall back on, but there’s more to life than being fearful and making others wrong.

    Comment by William — November 13, 2008 @ 2:53 am

 

16. William you don’t have a chance. We know far too much. There are thousands of ex-cult members telling us of the daily systematic abuses in your organisation. We have read Hubbards works and our conclusion is that he was a sociopath, a disgusting malodorous pervert.

    “Cynicism and fear mongering are an easy crutch to fall back on, but there’s more to life than being fearful and making others wrong.”

    We agree with you there but we wonder why you continue to carry on with it.

    “He (Cruise) is someone who speaks his mind even when it’s unpopular and stands up for what he believes even when he is ridiculed for it. That is the very definition of integrity.”

    No it isn’t. Integrity is what a person has when they are honest, transparent in their intentions and virtuous. Cruises character and yours are in disrepute.

    You ‘homo-novis’ are a recognised barbaric corruption cutting yourself off from the rest of humankind. WE will save the planet by bringing YOU to your senses.

    Comment by General Public AYS — November 13, 2008 @ 5:00 am

 

17. “You cannot make a fair judgment on any topic unless you’ve heard both sides of the story.” As soon as I hear that cliche my ears prick up.
    There are no ‘two sides of the story’ -there is only the truth. This cliche is a dull defencive tactic too often used by people who lie.

    The ‘two sides’ cannot be balanced and compared as if both sides have intrinsic worth when the user of the cliche hides, deviates, distracts and denies verifiable evidence.

    If one has an argument one must submit it to examination, which means answering questions honestly. This goes for everybody. It’s not sufficient to gainsay what ones opponent says.

    One has the inalienable right to examine an opposing position. But you are too frightened to do that. There are two reasons for this: one, is that you will be punished for it and secondly your certainty about scientology will be rocked to it’s core.

    A scientologist has no intellectual integrity because he intentionally abandons or abuses logic. This is logically assertained by the content of your post and we understand the ambition behind it. It means you and your friends can never be taken seriously.

    The constraints on your freedom are well documented and it is regretable that you are unable to use this cliche to your advantage as you insist we use it. Positively, the cliche can be used from a neutral position at the start of examination. But once the ‘wheat is seperated from the chaff’ we have truth and lies. And this is the ’story’.

    This continual charge of cynicism which is thrown at critics is a nonsense, a distraction meant to keep us occupied with defending ourselves. Anyone who likes to think freely and independantly knows that cynicism blunts the edge of a curious mind. The greatest cynics you will find in your own ranks, and your un-elected president Miscavige is the greatest of all.

    Comment by General Public AYS — November 13, 2008 @ 6:11 am

 

18. Wiliam you say:
    “How is it that our Volunteer Ministers were at Ground Zero after September 11th and in downtown New Orleans after Katrina and in the far east after the Tsunami, helping relief workers on a larger scale than any other private aid organization, but that never gets talked about in the media? ”

    FYI Scientology Ministries HAVE been in the media. YOU have not done your homework. They have been known to prey on people directly after a disaster. The Red Cross does not help people by trying to eventually recruit them into something like Scientology does.

    DURING 9/11… a phone number was run across TV screens and was immediately yanked off the air once the network knew it was a number for Scientology. They were also asked to LEAVE and move off the Gerogia Tech grounds,,, LOOK IT UP!

    And as far as Ground Zero goes….. their saunas and vitamin bombs administered to the fire fighters, where very dangerous, they were not administered by REAL doctors, and again this was done for media attention(as Cruise was there too) and was also done for RECRUITMENT into Scientology.
    Where is the scientfic proof that any of these touch asssists or vitamins,oil and saunas work? THERE ISN’T ANY!
    Actually it is just the opposite, as vitamin bombs of Niacin are quite harmful to the liver. LOOK IT UP!

    Scientology also uses the ministries as a promotional outlet for Scientology and recruitment is their main agenda. As they know there will be media at these loacations.

    WHY were they teaching Orleans and Tsuanami victims “touch assists”? This simply does NOT work, and is a CROCK, and may teach people to try this method rather than seeking a REAL doctor’s care. Especially that many of them can not afford a doctor or do not live near a doctor and do not have the means to get to a doctor.

    I am sure the only thing on Miscavige’s (he runs ALL front groups for the cult) mind is recruitment. Most of these victims are very poor, so therefor people may say.. well they can’t afford Scientology…. but these people are perfect canidates for Scientology’s Sea Org which promises a better life and that their auditing and teachings will be free in exchange for a life of abuse, unfair labor laws,family disconnection,elderly and child abuse,sleep deprevation,poor diets,no freedom and a life of sheer HELL. People from other countries joining the Sea Org have their passports seized and they sign a BILLION YEAR contract with the Sea Org. LOOK IT UP!
    So how come Scientology members NEVER talk about the Sea Org? And the Billion year contract members have to sign? Lies? NOPE! LOOK IT UP!
    How about all the abuses of the Sea Org? LOOK IT UP!

    There are no TWISTED facts on the internet as you say, only FACTS. There are testimonies,signed aftidavits from ex members and their families, and EX Scientology kids who were ex Sea Org members, who have their stories posted at http://www.exscientologykids.com
    One of those kids being the NIECE of the current Scientology leader David Miscavige. Who’s wife has been missing for over 2 years and is has many pending law suits agianst him for fraud and racketerring. THIS WAS IN THE NEWSPAPER AND ALL OVER THE MEDIA.
    And don’t start defending the cult by saying Peter Lettresse is not credible and has filed many lawsuits agaisnt Scientology…..
    Rhe meer fact that there is a lawsuit brought up at all, should tell you something. Not counting the MANY ones pending in France, and how Germany no longer considers Scientology a religion and the Belgium ORg has recently closed among others and the fact that 11 top Scitntology officials have left the Asustralain Org. DO YOU HOMEWORK! And when I say do your homeowrk, you don’t have to go to the MANY ansti-scientology sites, you can find these stories from actuual news sites. And lets not forget the deception of the Freewinds Cruise ship which was loaded with blue asbestos and they never told it’s passengers about it and continiued to sale for 21 YEARS after knowing about the contamination. You can find that story of the contamination in Curacoa News Article (where it was finally sealed)among many other news articles on the web. You can also call the Curoaco Drydock company. Find out for yourself.

    Also many ex members are starting to come out and tell their stories. Which also can be found at http://www.exscientologykids.com
    So you are saying ALL these peole are not telling the truth? Their stories are heart wrenching. Maybe you should read them.

    LIES William??

    I suggest you do your homework before you spout off about how great Scientology is. It sounds like Anonymous knows more than you do. I am not a part of Anonymous, but I certainly support their fight against this cult.
    You also say:
    “Do you really think the hundreds of thousands of people that are an active part of my religion are all being duped”

    Scientology members…. you really think are in the 100s of thousands?
    Uh….. the numbers are nowere near that high! LOL! Try 50,00 world wide and dropping DAILY.

    Your “church” is NOT a religion as stated by your own founder L. Ron Hubbard, one of the bigggest con man in the world, who lied about his naval records,his educaton, and most of his life, and EVERYTHING! LOOK IT UP!

    And yes you are being DUPED.
    DUPED IN EVERY WAY, SHAPE AND FORM!

    Comment by Scientology is an Abusive Cult — November 13, 2008 @ 9:59 am

 

19. Well said, William. I am a Scientologist as well. I have found that those spewing venom about our church, when there are so many real targets to go after, have their own agenda who will believe anyone with a nasty message. They believe everything they read without seeing the difference (A=A=A). I am sure they believe the pharmaceutical companies, the psychiatric community and the government are all there to help us unselfishly as well…….take the blinders off people; William’s words are true…..the rest are lies. At least consider the possibility!

    Comment by Steve6f8eh — November 13, 2008 @ 10:21 am

 

20. Check out the link there to see the values that are important to all of us, and compare it to todays society. What Scientology is ‘pushing’ is mostly common sense…..to sensible people, that is.

    Comment by Steve6f8eh — November 13, 2008 @ 10:29 am

 

21. WE HAVE NO BLINDERS. IT IS JUST THE OPPOSITE.

    It is Scientology that has the blinders. You deny ALL the actual testimonies from ex members? Families that have been disconnected from? The news articles written and the media coverage? All the law suits? All the members leaving? All the FBI cases on file? The infiltration of the IRS from Hubbard’s wife? Called Operation Snow White? SHE DID JAIL TIME.
    Is that made up? LOOK IT UP!<
    IT’S DOCUMENTED DAMN IT!

    Once the sh*t really hits the fan, you will be jumping ship like rats and cowering when your “church” leaves you in the lurch after all the hundreds of thousands of dollars you have “donated” to them, all for a Bridge To Nowhere.

    Miscavige is going to flee and hide just like Hubbard did. He doesn’t care about you!

    Cover up all you will, the truth is slowly coming out.
    NUFF SAID!

    Comment by Scientology is an Abusive Cult — November 13, 2008 @ 10:33 am

 

22. Let me talk to you in a language you can understand William and Steve….

    If you can EVER afford to get to OTIII, let me know how you feel after learning the story of Xenu….

    and if you are REALLY duped, and make it all the way up to OT8…
    and find out you mocked up your own past lives…..
    Let me know what you think of your “church” then!

    Comment by Scientology is an Abusive Cult — November 13, 2008 @ 10:44 am

 

23. It’s not a “church” Steve. There is nothing remotely “religious” about it. Hubbard cloaked $cientology in religion for tax purposes, to avoid having to comply with labor laws and as a shield from liability for the deaths and injuries of those led to believe your quackery is something other than what it is: Dangerous, unproven ramblings from a fraudster.

    Lisa McPherson, Ed Brewer, Elie Perkins, just to name a few. More here:

    http://www.whyaretheydead.net

    Hubbard quotes here:

    http://www.ronthenut.org

    A sampling: Leukemia’s source is an engram that states “it turns my blood to water”.

    Child abuse in the cult:

    http://www.exscientologykids.org

    Comment by Rachel — November 13, 2008 @ 10:45 am

 

24. Please take the words of people like me and those critics and make up your own minds. Don’t just beleive either just because it is in print.

    I fell sorry for all of those who seem to get such enjoyment quoting all of this “documented” information that twists the truth. The best lies contain some truth. Some of the events you have mentioned happened, but the details have been altered. History is riddled with this type of editing; this is no different.

    Just consider the possibility; thats all I ask!

    Comment by Steve6f8eh — November 13, 2008 @ 10:50 am

 

25. Steve,

    These aren’t lies. These are court documents and first hand accounts of what go on in your church. The logic of all lies are the truth is owellian doublespeak to try to confuse the issue. Own up to what your “church” does and confront the truth.

    http://www.xenu.net, http://www.exscientologykids.com/, http://www.whyaretheydead.net set

    Comment by A non a moose — November 13, 2008 @ 11:04 am

 

26. William and Steve… you guys actually didn’t fall for Miscavige’s claim that the tech was all wrong and you would have to retake everything over and buy new books ect?????

    The man (and I use the term lightly) squirreled the tech….. told members it was wrong, and told them they havd to buy and redo everything over, and they actually BELIEVED him?
    Or did you come into Scientology aftet this?

    At any rate, dont’ you think you should at the very least start questioning your “church” on these matters? SCARED???? of being declared and SP? for your freedom of speech and you curiosity?? hmmm?

    YOU HAVE BEEN DUPED! DUPED! DUPED!

    Comment by Scientology is an Abusive Cult — November 13, 2008 @ 11:05 am

 

27. And let’s not forget the fact that Davey solicits “donations” in order to purchase these fabulous buildings, and then after he buys them he turns around and leases them to the org itself! He’s getting paid TWICE. He’s got millions while people (including children) live in horrific conditions in the Sea Org.

    Did he get you for the library donation scam too?

    How much did you cough up for all new materials after Davey led you to believe Hubbard somehow missed all those “transcription errors”?

    Comment by Rachel — November 13, 2008 @ 11:20 am

 

28. Wiliam and Steve ….AGAIN>>>>>>>> LET ME REPEAT…
    And this is Scientology Tech quesions about levels by your own founder’s teachings.
    NOT something “made up”.

    If you can EVER afford to get to OTIII, let me know how you feel after learning the story of Xenu….

    and if you are REALLY duped, and make it all the way up to OT8…
    and find out you mocked up your own past lives…..
    Let me know what you think of your “church” then!

    Hey William, you pulled us in and then what happened??
    I consider that a non-confront!

    Squirreled tech and talk of OTIII usually sends Scientoloigts’ running…. they have no answers for these questions, they are afraid and simply don’t know.
    I hope William and Steve get the strength and courage to start asking questions and realize that they have been duped. Some day… all will know the truth… I hope it is soon.

    Anti Scientology people are trying to save lives and members from spending their life savings and their children’s inheritances.
    We are are trying to save YOUR lives William and Steve.

    Comment by Scientology is an Abusive Cult — November 13, 2008 @ 11:21 am

 

29. I have been around for 20 years, and the “tech was all wrong” is another bit of nonsense. If you really know what has happened, you would not make such silly remarks. Your disparaging remark about Mr. Miscavige is just more evidence of your motivation.

    I was curious about the changes at first, but once I listened to the reasons for the repairs done (no actually tech was altered) and experienced the results, my curiosity was satisfied. The benefits have been huge! If you actually tried any of this stuff you would see for yourself…..but it is not for everyone; especially people who just want to find fault in people who are trying to improve themselves and help others.

    Comment by Steve6f8eh — November 13, 2008 @ 11:24 am

 

30. I hate Tom and Scientology as much as the next guy, but when Tom was here in Seattle last Wednesday he participated as a guest in the Amazon yearly All-Hands meeting. Sitting on-stage at Benaroya Hall and being interviewed by a member of the movies team, Tom was there to tout his new movie, Valkyrie. He was in town only long enough to descend from his private jet, limo over to Benaroya for the interview and limo back to the airport. Nothing nefarious in that. Tom was only part of the show at the All-Hands, he was joined by Tinker Bell and the Simpson’s couch. All three are pretty much cartoon characters in my mind…….

    Comment by SeattleGuy — November 13, 2008 @ 11:27 am

 

31. Wow , you did fall for it?

    Ok then…. No arguing here. I don’t expect you to listen. After 20 years you have been fully conditioned.

    What is the benefit of me trying to find fault in people? Really what is the benefit? This makes no sense.

    I wish everyone peace and hope. Hopefullly some day you can get out of this cult and do not waste another 20 years of your life paying for your salvation.
    But you must find this out on your own.

    Comment by Scientology is an Abusive Cult — November 13, 2008 @ 11:33 am

 

32. Simpsons?? Nancy Cartwright(voice of Bart Simpson) donated 10 million FREAKING dollars last May to Scientology! Her entire years salary.

    Cruise’s only agenda is sqaushing the book the Complex because they are mortified it will come out.

    If they think all past members are full of crap and just disgruntled ex emmebrs.. then why would they even care what is written? BULLSHIT!

    Comment by Scientology is an Abusive Cult — November 13, 2008 @ 11:37 am

 

33. Amazon UK just squashed the book by the ex scientologists called the Complex and will not be selling it. and I suslect Tom’s visit has EVERYTHING to do with trying to squach the sell of it here. Again this isn’t the first time tha AMazon is guilty of censorship.

    Comment by Scientology is an Abusive Cult — November 13, 2008 @ 11:45 am

 

34. Ladies and gentlemen, beware of anyone who talks in cliches. Best lies do not contain truth, they misuse it.

    It you parked a wagon load of relevant documents IN FRONT of Steve6f8eh’s nose and they were all confirmed genuine by the highest court in the land, he would point to one of the tyres on the wagon and say it was worn.

    ‘No it isn’t’ you would say, and he would say ‘Yes it is’ and smile because he has succeeded into taking you away from the thread.
    What was the thread again……………………………..?

    TOM CRUISE MEETS WITH AMAZON, NOW AMAZON UK PULLING SCIENTOLOGY EXPOSE FROM SITE- COINCIDENCE?

    So Steve and his ilk are not even interested in defending their ‘religion’! They are not interested in defended their lies. THEY ARE TRYING TO STOP US MAKING THE CONNECTIONS : if this meeting with Amazon is not a coincidence then Cruise is no mere ‘public’ scientologist as claimed by cult members but one who is involved with policy. John Duigan’s book is to do with his his own experience in the cult, it has nothing to do with Cruise personally, but Cruise involves himself in the attempt to suppress it. Ipso facto, he knows and works with Miscavige intimately (no joke intended) and must know about ‘Fair Game’, ‘Disconnection’ the RPF……EVERYTHING!

    Stupid move Tom, or are you really working for us?

    Comment by General Public AYS — November 13, 2008 @ 11:58 am

 

35. I am an exmember of scientology. The abuse I suffered at the hands of the cult was so extreme it barely can be described. I want the public to know that what Anonymous says about the cult is 100% true (I am not Anonymous - they know who I am). I suffered severe sleep deprivation, a low calorie, low protein diet, lost family members, paid thousands of dollars in useless courses and “auditing” and was made to work 60-70 hours a week for vitually no wages at all. I was so indoctrinated that I was willing to do ANYTHING for the cult (caps are on for a reason).

    I just want to say that the writer of this book was not the exception to the rule in the treatment of scientologists and, most certainly, Sea Org members by the cult.

    This is real reason why the scientologists do not want you to read it.

    Comment by wil thompson — November 13, 2008 @ 12:05 pm

 

36. SeattleGuy - IT DOESN’T WORK!

    You may hate Tom Cruise but I don’t. I don’t what he is doing in the cult he is in, and I want to stop him doing it. Don’t pretend to be a non-scientologist. Your feeble excuses are what I expect to be said on his behalf. He’s TOTALLY on board and he doesn’t move anywhere without a scientological reason.

    Comment by Sue Mee — November 13, 2008 @ 12:07 pm

 

37. Thanks for sharing some of your experiences in the cult Wil.

    And congrats on getting out and reclaiming your life.

    Comment by Rachel — November 13, 2008 @ 3:19 pm

 

38. That’s quite a response in 24 hours… I tell you what I think would be fair: If you are a person who absolutely believes to your core that Scientology is abusive in all the ways some of you have listed here, then standing up for religious and personal freedoms and truth is something to be applauded. But I would ask, then, that you spend equal time investigating other religious institutions and exposing their alleged fraud to the same degree. Because then what you say would have some credibility. Otherwise it’s just a witchhunt. We are not molesting children and systematically hiding the evidence. We are not flying planes into buildings and declaring war on whole civilizations in the name of our religion. We are not giving people mind altering drugs that have not been properly tested and vetted and suppressing the results. Your insistence that our religion is nothing more than a money hungry cult sounds as ridiculous to us as we do to you.

    And for the record- how would anyone besides me know how happy I am in my life, how I measure my success, what kind of contributing member of society I am? Anyone care to compare your accomplishments with mine? We can trade resumes. Who are you to judge so harshly? You don’t know me, or the countless ways this philosophy has helped me be a better husband, father, employer, artist. You can talk about the organization of the church and try to condemn its leaders but until you have actually tried for even a moment to understand what the philosophy itself is all about you have no right to condemn it. Hubbard would not have written literally millions of words and taped thousands of hours of recorded lectures just so he could save money on his taxes. He devoted half his life to study in this area, and anyone who reads the basic materials can see the results for themselves. How can you so thoroughly condemn something based on other people’s opinions or a few pages on a website? It would be like dismissing Christianity after going to one site detailing clergy abuse, or dismissing Islam after going to a jihadist website. If you take the words of ex-members at face value, ask yourself why their version of the “truth” is so much easier to believe. What does it say about the state of our society that it’s easier to believe that this group is a criminal syndicate rather than the helpful group it claims to be? Tens of thousands of Scientologists will stand up and tell you how it has improved their lives. A very small minority will give you another viewpoint. How does that small group’s “truth” and reality have so much more validity than the vast majority of church members?

    Touch assists aren’t supposed to replace medicine or standard medical care. The body can take remarkably good care of itself when given proper nourishment, vitamins, etc and assists simply help the body realign itself after some trauma or illness. There’s nothing magical about it. Ever had a relaxing massage relieve sore muscles? Yeah, it’s kind of like that… It’s a hell of a lot better than popping a pill for every imaginable problem, real or invented, that only masks the symptoms and does nothing to get at the heart of the problem. And I was a pothead after high school and I smoked myself stupid one summer (literally). The fog only lifted years later when I did my Purification Rundown (what you call Niacin Bombs??). I don’t need a doctor to tell me what the benefits were because I experienced them first hand, and there is video taped evidence of the positive effects it had on 9/11 rescue workers who went from dozens of medications and steroids to needing none, people who said the program gave them their lives and families back. But I’m sure they were just coerced into saying that and are being held in a bunker somewhere…

    And OT III… I grew up Methodist, as I mentioned. I was taught in Sunday School from the age of 2 that God came down and impregnated Mary without deflowering her and she bore a son who was the child of a poor carpenter while simultaneously being an immortal god. He preached to the common people, challenged the religious and political order of the day, and was murdered for his insurrection alongside two common criminals. Then, we’re told, he rose from the dead and ascended into heaven to sit at the right hand of God the father.

    Literally billions of people worldwide take this story at face value in spite of zero evidence that heaven could actually exist as a real place, or that these events could have factually happened in the way the bible describes them. They take communion every Sunday which is a ceremony where they literally eat the body and drink the blood of their religious leader. Many believe that if they do not swear total devotion to him that they will burn in eternal hellfire. They are not questioned in this belief because it’s been around for 2000 years and so many people share the belief that it is considered “normal”.

    Jesus, whether he was an actual historical figure or just a cultural metaphor, is to this day one of my heroes, an example of someone who loved his fellow man in spite of every invitation to do the opposite, someone who died for his beliefs and worked only to help improve the lives of others. Despite the complications that come with Christian faith, this figure, whether he actually lived or not, inspires millions to lead better lives and strive to be the best people they can be. Christianity has been used to justify some of the most heinous crimes in history, including slavery. Religion is not something you can put in a tidy little box and say it is x y and z and that’s all there is to it.

    As long as you dismiss my group and my religion out of hand, without any sort of attempt at the objectivity you say we’re so sorely lacking, as long as you’re committed to our “destruction” because you clearly know so much better than I what’s best for me in my life, what exactly do you think I’m supposed to say? I’ve looked at all the negative info you’ve looked at, I’ve been on all the same websites when I first was introduced to Scientology. Most Scientologists I know have done the same thing at least to some degree. And yet we’ve all found something here that was more compelling than all this vitriol and venom that these sites keep spouting. I am friends with many people who are ex-Sea Org and still active Scientologists. The billion year contract is a pledge of commitment in principle. Maybe some people take it literally but that depends on their personal beliefs. Nuns are “brides of Christ” but no one questions that particular vow.

    The only point I’m trying to make is that you want us to take your viewpoint seriously enough to fundamentally question our beliefs and our group, something that has been with us for years if not a lifetime. You say we’re too entrenched in our beliefs or brainwashed into being fearful of “objective” information but you yourselves won’t actually open yourselves up to the possibility that Scientology does some of the positive things they claim for people. If you want to be taken seriously and really reach those of us who have “drunk the kool-aid”, then lay down the damn pitchforks and torches, actually visit http://www.scientology.org and watch all the videos and try for just one little minute the viewpoint that while mistakes have inevitably been made by the organization that this group, like almost every other group in the world, is primarily made up of good people who go about their day making the world a better place. Don’t presume that you know me or my friends or family well enough to judge us so completely and tell us the wool is over our eyes. And don’t dismiss out of hand based on the testimony of a small minority of disaffected members the motives or accomplishments of the church leadership. If 98 people out of a hundred think something is fantastic are you going to put all your belief in the testimony of the other 2 people and say “THAT’S the real story”?

    How happy are you as a person? Do you get along with your family? Are you accomplishing all your goals in life? Are you trying to help other people in your day to day life, other than trying to wreck my religion? I am a real person, with real feelings. Everyone has the right to their own opinion. Can we at least be civil in our dialogue? If I invited you over to dinner and you met my wife and two year old son is this how you would talk to me? You have every right to your viewpoint, but if you want to be heard then consider how you share it.

    And PS- Instead of going through and systematically trying to pick apart my viewpoint as stated above, please take a breath and a moment to try to get the big picture message that I’m trying to communicate- You have the right to your opinion and to your religious freedom, to practice or not as you see fit. I have those same rights, and the only way to accomplish any sort of understanding is through civil dialogue. Understanding is the only option for progress. Take 30 seconds to view this video:

    http://www.thewaytohappiness.org/#/videos/twth_respect_religious_beliefs

    I don’t expect to change your mind any more than you expect to change mine. But let’s at least grant each other enough respect to speak of our deep seated convictions with some degree of courtesy.

    Comment by William — November 13, 2008 @ 4:11 pm

 

39. WILLIAM .. the video tells you NOTHING.
    Neither does the website. You have to PAY PAY PAY to find out what Scientology is about. All other religions are FREE. Scientology is NOT a religion but a greedy corporate, abusive business.
    I do NOT aggree with the story of the bible,,, so save it. I find the story ridiculous,as well as the story of Xenu.

    Good luck to you and I hope you get out of the cult and spend your money on yoursself and your family rather than padding the pockets of David Miscavige.

    When you get to the upper levels…..you will see you were DUPED. Spend all that money only to find out that you have even MORE body thetans that you have to get rid of, and that you mocked up your own past lives, and oh yes…..in Truth Revealed…. that Hubbard is God?
    Whatever William, good luck to you, I am done trying to save you, the rest will have to come from your own findings eventually.

    Comment by Scientology is an Abusive Cult — November 13, 2008 @ 5:04 pm

 

40. To William. Are you saying then that the OTIII story of Xenu is true.

    Comment by Mitsu Too — November 13, 2008 @ 5:10 pm

 

41. And William, have you made it across the bridge yet?

    Have you once seen anyone have control over MEST?

    The fact is $cientology charges outrageous sums of money to learn what they call “religion”, hides the Xenu story until one has paid around $400,000 (the old bait and switch. Compatible with other religions? I think not) It is also fact that members are abused, not all, but many are. I don’t care what kind of results you think you get from Hubbard’s “tech”, it doesn’t excuse the human rights abuses. You want to practice Scientology? No one is stopping you from believing whatever you choose. It is the organization, OSA and David Miscavige that people protest. And I will continue to speak out until the abuses, the bullying, harassing and fair-gaming STOP.

    Comment by Rachel — November 13, 2008 @ 5:36 pm

 

42. The basic tenets of Dianetics and Scientology and a huge amount of “OT” data is all available in the newly releases book and lectures, which are manufactured and priced specifically so as many people as possible can afford them. There are paperback versions of all the basic books available at cost and FREE in almost every library around the world now. People’s time to progress up the Scientology “Bridge” is being cut in half as a rule since the release of these basic books and lectures because of the knowledge they impart. If our leadership were only motivated by greed, would it make sense that they were doing everything possible to make the Bridge more affordable and faster for everyone involved? I refer back to my earlier post that our church offers every service a conventional western church offers, also for free.

    In response to comment 39 - You find the nativity story “ridiculous”. You just dismissed a fundamental tenet of faith for something like 1/4 of the world’s population. So what do YOU believe in? What makes you hopeful for the future and what system of ethics and morals do you subscribe to if the rest of us are simply operating under some mass delusion?

    In response to Mitsu Too- I haven’t read the materials of OT III (and I guarantee that the version you may or may not have read on various websites has little chance of being a complete and in context presentation). I have dozens of friends who have and who are happy they have that viewpoint to consider. The bottom line is this: what is true for you is what is true for you.

    I personally believe that we are all spiritual beings and that the body is just a vessel, a vehicle like your car that you use to operate in the physical universe. Buddhists believe that there have been countless other lifetimes, other “realms”, other planes of existence. Christians believe that your soul lives on in heaven or hell into eternity. This is not a new belief. Is it such a stretch to think that if we are, in fact, spirits as opposed to bodies that in the vastness of this universe there have not been other civilizations that have risen and fallen over the eons? If you can “believe” in the Romans and the Greeks and the Egyptians and we have seen in our lifetime that space travel is possible, why is it so far out of the realm of possibility that we may have lived before in other contexts, speaking other languages, in other places besides this tiny corner of an infinitely vast universe? I don’t “believe” in aliens any more than I “believe” in Jesus. I am open to the possibility that Jesus existed, either as a mere mortal man or as some sort of divinely aware spirit, and I am open to the idea that I have lived countless lives before this one in various incarnations. But probably most importantly, I don’t need to believe that in order to be a Scientologist. And I really have to laugh at people who have spent maybe a few days in a lifetime “studying” the OT materials they can find on various slanderous websites and then want to lecture me on what my religion is actually about. Again, I can see I’m not going to change the tone of this dialogue, but maybe someone reading through this who is simply curious about the subject will be given food for thought instead of blindly following either viewpoint based on a few opinions they’ve heard or read.

    Comment by William — November 13, 2008 @ 5:52 pm

 

43. William,

    If it works for you that is great. However, you organization acts like it is above the law. It harasses critics, litigates people into bankruptcy, and has many other shady practices. Yet, when people try to bring these points up scientology tries to change the subject and is unwilling to be introspective.

    Your ilk tend to compare crimes of Christianity and whatever religion is around. in the modern era, these churches are routinely reign in for the illegal practices and are freely criticized. Why does Scientology sue people who disagree with them? Why do they spread false rumors and what boarders on the libel, on websites?

    Like i said, if it works for you great! But the church has to be responsible for its leadership and actions and can not exist to make money.

    Comment by A non a moose — November 13, 2008 @ 6:10 pm

 

44. “In response to Mitsu Too- I haven’t read the materials of OT III (and I guarantee that the version you may or may not have read on various websites has little chance of being a complete and in context presentation). I have dozens of friends who have and who are happy they have that viewpoint to consider. The bottom line is this: what is true for you is what is true for you.”

    Did those friends tell you that then story of Xenu is part of the OTII materials?

    Would it bother you that the Xenu story, although freely available on the net, was confirmed by the Church of Scientology in a documented publicly accessible court transcript as being copyrighted OTIII materials?

    Would it bother you to view scientologist, such as yourself, recently deny on film the existance of the Xenu story (they claim to have competed OTIII levels)?

    Would it bother you that there are 1000s of ex scientologist who have personal documented stories of the abuses they have suffered, the fair game they have been subjected to, being followed by PIs hired by the church, etc.? Using you’re analogy of the Catholic Churches past abuses, which no one denies, how would you justify ignoring the abuses just because it has occured in other religions. Incidently I am not aware of one court case filed by the Church against its critics or victims for speaking out on such abuses. Two wrongs do not make a right.

    Would it surprise you to know that while many people currently criticizing or questioning your church practices against its members are maintaining their anonyminity because of your church’s propensity to sue people into silence or bankruptcy due to your church’s vast financial resources and lawyers devoted to this very purpose?

    Would it surprise you to know that a very large number of the above people are not part of the “anonymous” group historically prior to January 2008 and are in fact doctors, lawyers, law enforcement, teachers, professors, social workers, journalist, health professionals, blue collar workers, executives, accountants, veterenarians, and various other professionals who also cover all the spectrums of nationality, race, religion, gender or creed?

    Would it surprise you that your religious views although questionable by many standards are not at the core of this arguement? For that matter the so call tech probably does work for many people in its earlier stages. The overwhelming majority of critics are demanding that the abuses, fraudulent practices and corporate structure of the Church of Scientology stop.

    Saying that it is working for you does not justify your churches abuses of other members and critics or its continued practice of fairgame, disconnection, false litigation and use of front groups in its complicated recruitment process. AS a member for 20 years you have not reached OTIII yet and thus are probably what is term a public scientologist. You should contact ex members, particularly ex Sea Org members who were in 30 years and more and got out. Maybe if you talk to them face to face you can judge for yourself if they are deluded and making all this up. And I ask you for what gain?

    It constantly surprises me how this little site attracks so much attention every time it features something on Tom Cruise and Scientology. I have read, watched and observed many of the discourses here and elsewhere and have looked at sites devoted to both sides. All I can say is you can’t ignore the evidence and you can’t ignore that this will not go away quietly anymore.

    Comment by Mitsu Too — November 13, 2008 @ 6:34 pm

 

45. Mitsu- Ultimately I think you and I agree in principle on what is fair, what is just and what should and should not be condoned. You are getting the bulk of your information from a certain set of sources that you believe are giving you factual, correct information. I am doing the same thing. You say there are thousands of ex Scientologists who have documented their stories of mistreatment? Is that a statement of fact and is there a particular source you can site on that as an unbiased reference? I don’t single that out to nitpick but to draw attention to the idea that maybe there actually aren’t thousands of disgruntled ex-Scientologists. Maybe there are hundreds, or even just a few dozen who make a whole lot of noise. Maybe some of them were mistreated, or at least they certainly feel they were. But you and so many others want that to be THE story that is told about my religion. I definitely don’t have the viewpoint that because other religions have a history of abuse that that makes it OK. My point is that Scientology has been singled out and targeted with the most organized and aggressive attack campaign suffered by any group in the history of the internet (verifiable on Wikipedia, for whatever that’s worth). These attacks and others like them have been made on the organization and on Hubbard himself since the very first printing of Dianetics. The church has been attacked systematically and aggressively since its earliest days, and the methods used to do so are as bad as anything you’re accusing the church of. My point is that the internet is not a place to find objective information or facts of any kind. It is a place where arguments are made and viewpoints are put forth and there’s very little regard for any objective truth and no checks and balances that maintain an ethical standard of what is true and what isn’t. The IRS went after the church more aggressively and for longer than any other group in history and still granted them full religious status, which the US government has defended in Europe and elsewhere. Do you think they would have done that if David Miscavige was pocketing all the “profits” personally? That’s exactly the kind of slander that has no basis in fact that I started posting about in the first place. People do not always tell the truth. Because certain people feel the church has wronged them does not make them above reproach or questioning. Not everyone who criticizes Scientology is as pure as the driven snow. But again, that never gets talked about. It’s like the church owes it to the world to apologize for standing up for itself against a ceaseless barrage of attacks and criticism that started from day one. I bring up the analogies from other religions because this is not the first time this has happened. New ideas are not popular. New movements are always met with suspicion and fear. I would just like a tiny little bit of balance in the online conversation. And if people are going to make blanket accusations then they need to cite sources other than the handful of anti-scientology websites that are out there as factual, unbiased sources.

    Comment by William — November 13, 2008 @ 7:19 pm

 

46. Thank you Glossip for telling this to the world and thank you Mr. Dunigan for telling your story. Nothing can change and nobody can tell you different about what hell you went through. Its a shame that in the 21st century that people have to silence people. Scientology if they were a true religion they would turn the other cheek. You dont see the Catholic church or a Jewish Synagogue telling online book sellers to stop pushing the book on to the public. Only in Scientology

    Comment by Stephen Sliver — November 13, 2008 @ 7:44 pm

 

47. Dear William you assume that all critics rely on a few websites critical of scientology and just assume based on a few facts. Did you ever think that perhaps some of us may have gone further in our research and come to the same conclusion? One could say the same thing of your arguement on whether you rely on “Is that a statement of fact and is there a particular source you can site on that as an unbiased reference?” to your statements that your Church has been victimized. I and others would ask that you seek outside of your own “biased” sources and research freely all available sources including transcripts of court cases. While yes it is true that some groups (religious and others) throughout history have been subjected to persecution injustly thereas as many of not more that were allowed to thrive unchecked to the detriment of mankind such as Nazism, Facism, White Supremist and Jim Jones to name a few. That is the danger we risk when we ignore the warnings signs and when we blindly follow any dogma without examining it fully then we do risk totalitarianism in any form controlling segments of our societies. Victims of crimes ,such as rape, child abuse, spousal abuse, animal abuse, etc., have been stigmatized such that, while statistics show that it happens far more often than is actually reported, there continues to be those in society that close their eyes to what is happening around them. Our papers are full of cases every single day of people being killed by their spouses, for instance, and people who claim to have been close to the people involved being shocked and ignorant of the problems inherent. How often do we hear “he was such a nice guy..a fine upstanding citizen…a church going man…etc…yet when the facts are revealed there was plenty of wake up signs of impending disaster. I do not question your faith William but I do question your reluctance to look beyond the veil. Not all critics of scientology are credible I admit and in truth I and others do not see you as “bad” people. There is, however, far to much information from many sources ( not just web sites) that it is too much for one to ignore. And William far too many scientologist who argue with the critics fail to discuss it openly. Being told to go read a book or visit your sites does not dispell the illusion that scientologist cannot speak freely.

    “My point is that the internet is not a place to find objective information or facts of any kind. It is a place where arguments are made and viewpoints are put forth and there’s very little regard for any objective truth and no checks and balances that maintain an ethical standard of what is true and what isn’t.”

    What is true for you is true for you? I really can’t understand what you mean with this. Truth cannot with 100% certainty be 100% correct 100% of the time. Saying it is so does not make it so. I can believe that the sky is blue because on a sunny day it is, as far as my life time, has always been blue. But a blind man could say the sky is not blue it is black. That is his reality but it doesn’t change the fact that the sky is blue. Should the sky be green or purple then I would not say the sky is not blue. I would say what the heck is going on and rush to find out why. Find out why there is so much criticism levelled at your church right now. Find out why the niece of your leader is speaking out, why Bruce Wiseman’s daughter is speaking out, why Jason Beghe is speaking out, why Larry Brennan is speaking out, Marc Headly, Jeff Jacobson, Chuck Beatty, and many many more. Even if only 10% of what they say is true you have a serious problem that any person of good conscience cannot ignore. They are the canaries in the coal mine.

    Comment by Mitsu Too — November 13, 2008 @ 8:24 pm

 

48. Wiliam….Paperback versions of all the basic books in almost every library around the world???? you really believe this??

    Someone did a REAL actual search and found this is very FAR from the truth. Do you realy think books are available in EVERY library? Looks like you fell for that scam too? How much money did you give them for that cause?
    Again you were DUPED.
    Check it out. I challange you to check just 100 libraries in the US and see what you come up with.

    And as far as “speeding people up the bridge”… do you think this is fair to all the members that spent so much time and MORE money then people who are now being hurried up the bridge now? How is this fair? And what explanation are they giving their members?
    This doesn’t seem fishy to you at all???

    They are speeding people up the bridge to get their money while they can, because they know the jinx is up.

    They are speeding people up the bridge to replace the higher OTs that have already left the cult.

    They are speeding people up the bridge to get them more brainwashed quicker, before the church totally dissolves and Miscavige takes off. (if he hasn’t already)

    Man,,, I got a bridge for sale in San Francisco, if you are interested!

    Comment by Scientology is an Abusive Cult — November 13, 2008 @ 8:47 pm

 

49. Anonymous members cyber-stalk Scientologists, putting their personal data on http://www.Encyclopediadramatica.com

    See:

    http://anonymous-is-a-hategroup.blogspot.com/2008/10/making-money-off-anonymous.html

    TOM NEWTON

    Comment by Tom Newton — November 13, 2008 @ 8:50 pm

 

50. $cientology hate site, “Religious Freedom Watch”

    Comment by Rachel — November 13, 2008 @ 10:09 pm

 

51. William, if you were to find that what the critics are saying about the $cientology organization were true, would you still continue to give them so much of your time and money?
    I highly doubt you would. They know this, so why would they admit to you that what the critics say is true? Of course they do everything in their power to control your information and discredit the victims because they have their income at stake.
    We, on the other hand, have nothing to lose or gain from this. We have no association to “big pharma” as the people who take your money to would have you believe. Most of us are just looking to make sure that the abuses do not continue.

    Think about it Will, it is so obvious to everybody else what is going on here, but you just don’t want to accept the fact that you have been conned.

    Comment by liz — November 14, 2008 @ 11:54 am

 

52. Anyone who uses encyclopediadramatica as a legit resource should not be listened too.

    Comment by anonymous — November 14, 2008 @ 12:23 pm

 

53. William, thanks for spending so much time on such a long note. You obviously care about the world around you. The questions you ask are good ones. I have thought about them and I will answer them, though maybe not to your satisfaction. There is the question of “Framing” though. The questions you ask are not the important ones. Here are some others that I think are more important. Ask yourself, “Why does Dianetics offer perfect memory, perfect vision, no asthma, a mind like a computer, no colds, a longer life span and then not produce? It emphasizes that it works as consistently as chemistry or physics and has been tried out over 270 times. Ask yourself why really no one has produced an OT phenomenon. If you think Ingo Swann has, he was tested only by a Scientologist and the experiment was never repeated. He is your star. Locally, the only two OT8’s died together in a traffic accident in spite of their superpowers. I can’t help but be suspicious. Why have so many high ranking Scientologists left the fold? They are supposed to be so sane that they make normals like me look like psychotics; it says so in Dianetics. Why has Scientology not caught on in 55 years? If it did 1/10 of what it says it can do (control knowingly and at will over matter, energy, space, time, life and thought) everyone would have joined by now. When I was a member the church predicted that everyone would be a member by 1975– five years later. Why didn’t that happen? Where are all the members from 1970 anyway? We had about 120 staff members at the local church. Why are they ALL gone? There is not one person there today that predates me. Why does Scientology claim 100,000 in Canada’s national newspaper then three months later claim 200,000 on a national TV network? Why are there only 1200 in the Canadian census figures? If you walk by the churches, they look empty and decrepit so 1200 makes sense. There are about 1/2 million Jews in Canada. Their synogogues are all over the place and many are quite large. Surely we would see more churches and they would be more active if there were really 200,000 Scientologists. I have more questions but those are some of the important ones.

    On to your statements William. Most of what you read on the internet are not lies or half truths they are experiences that are far different than your own. I recall a similar feeling, years ago, when a local newspaper reported that Scientology was a group that believed that Earth was once part of the Marcab Confederacy and was called Teegeeack. I thought at the time, that there really were suppressives and that that journalist was one of them. Imagine my suprise to find out that he was telling the truth and Scientology was the one that was lying to me. I should have known better. I had heard about shore stories, gradient truths and acceptable truths, all euphemisms for lies. I had been asked to tell them. I should have known that these people had been lying to me too, not just the public.

    The people in the Sea Org believe they are doing a lot of good but as they say, the road to hell is paved with good intentions. There may be thousands of hard working Sea Orgers but most have left. Look at the ages of them. Where are the ones from the 1950’s, 60’s and 70’s? Most soon realize that they have been taken and flee. This is hard to do because they have friendships, even spouses there, a free loader contract and very little or no money. Most have no real education and can’t use the limited skills from Scientology in the wog world but they leave anyway.

    The Volunteer Ministers get little media attention for a variety of reasons. People who are experts at Scientology in the media remember when Hubbard said that rewarding downstats produces downstats. He said that sympathy was a low tone. Scientology did no charitable work. So when they do charity at events covered by the media, and crow about it, the charity seems like a photo op. Also, your volunteer ministers do very little good. Those drills and assists are placebos. Also journalists don’t like getting threatened with lawsuits or being called bigots every time they do a bad story on you. They are not about to do you any favours. I think that covers it.

    You don’t do as much good as you think. Your stats about getting people off drugs have not been corroborated by any outside source. In fact, when outside sources do look at your drug program it seems to be based on pseudoscience, is dangerous in its use of vitamins and doesn’t produce results any higher than a placebo. Sorry, but that’s the answer. What your church does do is take away a lot of money, usually from people who can’t afford it. When they are tapped dry they are taken into staff which, when I was there, was long hours of hard work for pennies, about $.30 per hour in 1970. Co-auditing doesn’t work well and usually results in expensive services to fix up the co-auditing. To anyone but a scientologist it seems like a bold attempt to take average people for every nickle they will ever make, every nickle they can ever borrow, and their inheritance too. My guess is you once thought that yourself but you are thinking differently now. You may see yourself with big gains coming just around the corner.

    What is a cult? Well, I think of the concept as being part of a continuum. Most religions display some aspects of cultish behaviour some of the time but yours expresses most aspects most of the time. You bait people with Tom Cruise success and by telling them that “we get people off drugs”. You won’t tell them about Xenu and body thetans until after they have paid hundreds of thousands of dollars. I for one think that Xenu is no more ridiculous than Jesus on the cross or Moses at the burning bush but you find out about those things immediately once you enter a church or synagogue. Your church is about money for services and hard sells and about commissioned salespeople that you euphemistically call field staff and registrars. Churches and synagogues (and I assume Hindu Temples and Muslem Mosques) involve money but they will give away their services to the needy. Mormons ask for a tithe, 1/10th, of whatever people earn. I was asked for all I could earn and all I could borrow and to work about seventy hours a week as well. It is no surprise that you are criticized. Where does the money go? Is an audit (the usual meaning of the word) posted on your bulletin board? Does it go back into the pockets of the members? Does your org offer full disclosure? Most churches and synagogues do.

    Also, there are various versions of what Judiism and Christianity are. “Put five Jews in a room, get seven opinions,” is an old phrase that you may have heard. Scientology is all top down with L.Ron Hubbard as the word and his word not open to interpretation or debate less you become a squirrel. That’s why people like me call Scientology a cult.

    Your analogy to the cost of university is interesting but I don’t buy it. I think a university’s money goes to paying professors and keeping up the buildings. I think (though I can’t swear to it) that your money goes to expansion, paying lawyers and keeping the higher ups rich. It doesn’t go to the teachers or to the people who keep up the cult offices. They get paid very little. And, I for one, think that what Scientology teaches is not only useless but extremely detrimental. Too many come out of Scientology with their brains fried like strips of bacon. I know an OT7, an OT5, an OT3 and an OT1 who came out of the cult with no skills that apply outside the cult and a very perverse view of the way the world works. Three of them have clawed their way back to reality; one has not. I must conclude that while Scientology may cost as much or more than a Harvard Education it doesn’t give you a Harvard Education, it gives you a deluded view of reality and therefore the analogy must end there.

    Anyway, I have spent a bit of time here, trying to help someone I don’t even know. Please think about these things.

    I am not a suppressive who wants to harm you. I have just gone through this nonsense once myself, years ago, and I think I have some special knowledge. That’s why I speak out.

    Comment by William Hunt — November 14, 2008 @ 2:33 pm

 

54. Thank you William Hunt for that brilliant response to the pro-Scientology folks. Thanks further to Gloss Lip for getting the word out. What is Scientology so afraid of? If they are indeed right about everything they claim, how could a mere book harm the “church?” How could the cult’s objections to open information shed any positive light on Scientology? Another shot in the foot for Scientology. Their self-help program should be taxed as it is just a business.

    Comment by Inscrutabledrum — November 14, 2008 @ 4:33 pm

 

55. Thanks for your comments, William. You really seem like a level headed person with an interest in discussing Scientology (not arguing about it). If you’d like, I invite you to join the discussion over at http://www.topix.com/forum/religion/scientology

    There’s a member (Cousin Jethro) there that I believe is terribly representing Scientology and Scientologists. I’d love to hear what you’d have to say about his behavior.

    One issue with one thing you said up there, though:

    “A very small minority will give you another viewpoint. How does that small group’s “truth” and reality have so much more validity than the vast majority of church members?”

    I’m sure a very small minority (when compared to the whole of Catholicism) of children were being abused by the clergy of the Catholic Church. That didn’t make it any less true, did it? And, I don’t think you’re saying that the overwhelming amount who weren’t abused and who were happy somehow negated it. So, why not allow an investigation? Why not be transparent and silence the criticism once and for all? I’m sure there are those within the Catholic Church that thought the sexual abuse allegations were just as preposteous as you find the allegations against your Church.

    Just something to think about. And, I hope you come over to the Topix forum and be a better representation of Scientology.

    And, William Hunt, I think would agree. If he’s who I think he is. Good post btw WH.

    Comment by Anon, Anon, My Boyfriend's Back! — November 14, 2008 @ 6:34 pm

 

56. I agree with Anon. Scientology should be more open to discussion in ever way. It can’t admit to mistakes because its founder was “pandeterministic” and had control knowingly and at will over matter, energy, space, time, life and thought. A mistake would negate that. Conversely, if scientology did have a truth and reconciliation commission there would be nothing left of scientology at the end because, as Judge Lahey said, the organization is based on lies.

    Comment by William Hunt — November 14, 2008 @ 8:00 pm

 

57. AAMBB- Compare William (the Scientologist WH responded to) to “Jethro” on Topix and you will see how easy it really is to spot an OSA shill.

    Comment by Rachel — November 14, 2008 @ 10:06 pm

 

58. by Tom Newton
    Anonymous member “AnonAnchovie” (real name John Duignan ) has recently published a sensationalized (and in all likelyhood fictionalized) account of this time in the Church of Scientology’s Sea Organization. The author hopes that his book, like DIANETICS, will help the reader by “providing them with a life line back to sanity.”

    “I will be doing some promotional work and events…Please buy my book, I am a poor university student and need the money.”
    His intended audience includes Anonymous members and “Freezoner” Scientologists:

    “I love you all, even the Freezoners…Thank you Anonymous for who you are, what you represent and your goodness, thank you from empowering me, I hope you enjoy the book, it is in part, dedicated to you. ”

    Predictably, John has made it clear that his intention is to “move on” with his life now that his book has been published. Obviously, the only relationship he wants with Anonymous members and other Anti-Scientologists, is one with their money:

    http://anonymous-is-a-hategroup.blogspot.com/2008/10/making-money-off-anonymous.html

    Comment by Tom Newton — November 14, 2008 @ 10:13 pm

 

59. This is nuts!
    You give Tom Cruise WAY too much power and WAY too much credit!

    Yes. Why couldn’t it be a coincidence? Remember that Thank You for Smoking sex scene debacle where the director himself even had to publicly deny the rumor that Tom Cruise had cut the scene from a festival screening.

    Contrary to popular belief he’s not 2nd in command of Scientology.

    And are you really going to believe an independent source? How many times have the tabloids used that line?

    Comment by Sane Person — November 14, 2008 @ 10:47 pm

 

60. There is anti-prop 8 anti-scientology protest on 11/15 at Scientology Headquarters in Los Angeles, San Diego and San Francisco

    Comment by Batman — November 14, 2008 @ 11:45 pm

 

61. Tom you’re repeating yourself. And failing-again.

    And yes, Cruise IS the 2nd in command in $cientology.

    Comment by Rachel — November 14, 2008 @ 11:55 pm

 

62. In response to Liz (comment 51)- If I were to discover by whatever means that there were people within the Scientology hierarchy who were being unethical and untruthful in their words or actions then I would do everything possible to address those outpoints within the Scientology ethics and justice system (this has been done before at the highest levels of the church). I have used this system multiple times for personal and business disagreements with very satisfying results. When you say “we” are you speaking for every critic of Scientology? I guarantee you there are lobbyists and people in positions of power, including those with ties to the drug industry, who do everything they possibly can to discredit Scientology. Did you ever see the movie “The Insider” with Russell Crowe? It was about Big Tobacco and how they’d stop at nothing to discredit their detractors. I am not a fan of conspiracy theory. But just as I can’t speak for Scientology as an organization, you can’t say with any certainty that there aren’t people and groups with ties to drug companies and others who profit astronomically from the status quo who would not love to see Scientology fade into the sunset because of the attention they draw to the unethical behavior that kills thousands of people every year. And who is “everybody else”? I hate generalizations. Many people you know and communicate with share your values and viewpoints. Good for you. “Everybody else” I know shares mine. And these are some of the smartest, most dynamic, most capable people I know. Think about it, Liz. If Scientology were really brainwashing all of us, wouldn’t we be a little the worse for wear? People who are brainwashed, assuming that’s even possible, don’t do well in life. My friends who are happiest and doing really well in life tend to be people who are on or through OT VII, which is currently at the top of the Scientology Bridge. This is far past OT III and all the fun stuff you guys enjoy maligning.

    In response to William Hunt (comment 53)- In the new basic books and lectures Hubbard talks extensively and openly about the progression of his research and how he learned an incredible amount of new information in just the few years after the initial release of Dianetics in 1950. He admits mistakes were made in some of his theorizing and is clear at every opportunity that the science of Dianetics and what would become Scientology is evolving at such a rapid rate that the techniques and the standardness of the results was changing sometimes on a daily basis. Hubbard was a remarkable man. I think even his fiercest detractors would have to admit that. He spent decades taking what came quite easily and naturally to him and standardizing it in such a way that his results could be duplicated and repeated by others. Sounds like you were around at a time when the level of standardization was not in any way comparable to what we have today. You speak of something that you have not been actively, directly involved with in 40 years. How could you possibly make an informed statement on the state of things within the organization in 2008? The entire organization is now run by people who were not in power when you were involved with Scientology. “Under new management”. So it’s not fair to make gross generalizations about what Scientology is or does in 2008 if you haven’t been there to witness it firsthand in over three decades.

    I know dozens of examples of people who are friends and friends of friends who have shown me in ways large and small that they are some of the most ethical, kind, capable and dynamic people I’ve ever known. I’ve also seen changes in myself and those I care about as they’ve progressed up the Bridge. Has the delivery of every auditing session been flawless throughout the history of Scientology? Of course not. Does that mean we should throw the baby out with the bathwater? Hell no. Don’t know when you last read Keeping Scientology Working but the answers to everything you’re bringing up are in there.

    In terms of it not having caught on in 55 years, or comparing it to the Jewish community, let’s touch base again in the year 5008 when Scientology will have been around as long as Judaism. If civilization still exists, we’ll compare notes on church attendance. In terms of census numbers, does every Christian or Jew you know go to church every weekend? What does it take to call yourself a Christian or a Jew or a Muslim or a Scientologist? You suggest that the church falsely inflates its numbers. I would argue that there are absolutely 200,000 people in Canada who have actively been involved with Scientology at one point in their lives. Are they all there five nights a week on course? Maybe not, but that’s a very different scenario than the blatant falsification you’re suggesting. I have heard countless personal stories in the last six months of Scientologists who were not actively on the Bridge for years, sometimes decades, who are now back in the churches studying these basic books and lectures and being revitalized. Your attitude is defeatist and cynical on this subject. The church I would imagine counts anyone who has ever reached for this kind of help as someone worth helping. And for that they are punished and maligned.

    Regarding past civilizations and earth’s origins- There are numerous references to past civilizations and other cultures in these new basic books and lectures, once again widely and cheaply available to anyone who is interested. There is nothing being hidden here. Hubbard has a sense of humor about it in the lectures. The point is not whether people “believe” in past lives or whether they even actually exist, it’s that if you acknowledge past lives when giving and receiving auditing (pastoral counseling) people improve. If you don’t, they don’t, period. In terms of telling the truth, have you ever noticed how the truth can be twisted to suit any agenda? The tape of Tom Cruise accepting his humanitarian award has been widely circulated online and used to try to belittle him. That speech was very moving to all of us who watched it at the event in its original context. You can be the most ethical, helpful genuine person in the world and people will literally crucify you for it. Jesus was literally murdered as a common criminal for preaching what he did and defying the political and religious powers of the day. Are we mere mortals supposed to fair so much better? So you tell me how best to navigate a minefield or answer the question “Do you still beat your wife?”. Your question presupposes that the journalist is there to find out the objective truth instead of sell ad space. And please don’t tell me I’m being cynical about journalists. I have friends in local TV news (including an ex-girlfriend) who can barely get out of bed in the morning these days with the lack of integrity they deal with on a daily basis. Open up any news magazine and look at the table of contents. You will find countless words like “terror”, “war”, “fear”, “destruction”, “recession”, “instability”. This is not by accident. Good news doesn’t sell, period- maybe another reason why Scientology hasn’t “caught on” in the media.

    Sea Org members- I know dozens of Sea Org members who’ve been in since the sixties and seventies. “Most of them catch on and flee”? Where are you getting that information? What census poll are you referring to exactly? And I’ve had countless assists myself and given them to other people to great benefit. You call them a placebo. As compared to what? Maybe they should pop some Paxil to make all the pain go away? You belittle the hard work and dedication of these people. Do you volunteer? Are you a member of a church at present? Do you do work for Habitat for Humanity or the Red Cross? I have seen firsthand and experienced myself the kind of help that’s possible with simple assists. If they didn’t work for you that’s regrettable, but don’t sit there and tell me what does and doesn’t work as a general rule based on your subjective experience.

    In terms of getting people off drugs and how effective the Purification program is, I again have my own firsthand, subjective experience with it. I had trouble focusing and concentrating and had low energy after smoking too much pot after high school. It wasn’t until I did my first Purification Rundown that I felt that haze lift and I was happier and more alert than I had been in years, and arguably since I was a little kid. I’ve spoken directly with graduates of Narconon who say the program absolutely saved their lives. And are we supposed to trust the FDA to do some impartial studies on the effectiveness of the program? They’re definitely the standard bearers for ethical, impartial results. Don’t ask a Scientologist, just go rent Michael Moore’s “Sicko”.

    And what right do you possibly have to tell me that my gains are “just around the corner” and I’m giving away my life’s savings in the hope of a benefit I haven’t yet achieved? For the last year I’ve been studying the basic books and lectures nonstop at the rate of about $100 per week. For roughly ten hours per week (that would be $10 per hour) I get a clean, well lit classroom with an attentive course supervisor. I haven’t been pressured to do any auditing during this time and I’m actually waiting until I’ve finished the whole line up because I know my auditing will go that much faster. The knowledge I’ve gained has strengthened my marriage, helped me start a new business from scratch with no borrowed money and make it profitable in the first six months, and generally given me a sense of confidence and purpose I haven’t had before. I couldn’t have gone to community college and learned basket weaving for that price, so save your generalizations about how it doesn’t work or it’s too expensive or “they’ll get me later” for someone else. That’s not my experience, nor the experience of countless other Scientologists I know. And I have paid thousands of dollars in the past for auditing and loved it and benefited from it immensely. Go ask your neighborhood shrink how much they charge per office visit or per prescription and we can have an informed discussion on what constitutes throwing your money away.

    In terms of the church operating for profit- Once again, I refer you to the largest and most aggressive investigation in the history of the IRS. Don’t you think they were DYING to find something incriminating? Don’t you think there were people high up the food chain who would have given their left nut to dig up some dirt on Scientology? And yet here we are, full religious recognition in the most democratic country in the world. And in terms of five Jews having seven opinions, again I refer you to Keeping Scientology Working, which I assume you’ve read since it came out in 1965. The answers to that question are all there. Hubbard never claimed to be perfect. But he did come up with something workable, and if it works that way then don’t do it some other way. Why is that so hard to grasp? It may be that the guy was actually smarter than you. Get over it. If you want to practice some other belief system go for it. But don’t call it Scientology. Why is that so cultish? I can’t start my own Methodist church and worship a golden calf. Every religion has its standards. Scientology’s are exacting because that level of dedication to precision gets the best results. Are they always perfect? No, but that doesn’t mean you don’t aim for perfection every time. If we did it your way, in twenty years we’d be sitting around in circles playing a game of telephone with the e-meter and reciting our names in pig latin. It’s not open to interpretation because that proved less effective. Wishing we could all figure it out together doesn’t make it so. We’ve had 4000 years of culture to come up with group solutions and look at the state of things. Is it so awful to give this particular viewpoint a try?

    Regarding my analogy to a Harvard education- there are probably hundreds if not thousands of Harvard alums who have committed suicide, bankrupted their businesses, cheated on their wives or generally destroyed their lives. To point to individuals and say that because they are not a shining beacon of Scientological perfection that the tech itself doesn’t work takes away every bit of their own power and self-determinism. It turns them into poor, helpless victims instead of people who must take responsibility for their own decisions and actions. Also, I say again that what you experienced 30 or 40 years ago is a far cry from what most people experience today. If you want to speak with some authority then you owe it to yourself to get back into communication with your local church and experience what is happening now instead of assuming so much based on experiences half a lifetime ago.

    In reply to comment 57- Not sure if you’re suggesting I’m the shill or “Jethro” is, but either way, if it’s a backhanded compliment on my ability to communicate clearly, thank my mother, the English teacher.

    In reply to comment 55 - I appreciate the acknowledgment and the invitation to continue the dialogue elsewhere. Here’s the thing: I can’t do this for a living. It’s been an interesting exercise for me and a fascinating discussion but I’m certainly in no position to speak for my religion or my group as a whole, and frankly I have a life to live in the real world! I started this posting because I’ve met Tom Cruise, I’ve met his family and various people who work for him and with him and he is someone I admire greatly. There is a reason that so many of his friends and colleagues have voiced their support for him so publicly, sometimes facing criticism themselves for doing so. The bottom line here is that one side is more factually correct than the other: Scientology is either the evil, money hungry cult some of you believe, or it’s the ethical, dedicated, exceptional organization I believe it to be. The good news for both of us is that time will tell. I hope that this discussion will be thought provoking to anyone who stumbles on it in passing, but I have to get back to my real world responsibilities. I also hope, for what it’s worth, that even the most cynical among you have things in your lives that give you as much pleasure and satisfaction and hope as this philosophy gives to me. In case you haven’t noticed, our culture is not doing so well these days. Many of the things the church believes in and fights for, like bringing to light psychiatric abuse and the completely reckless way the pharmaceutical industry is trying to make lifetime patients of all of us, are important issues that need to be addressed, regardless of who does the addressing. I believe that most people on both sides of this argument are well intentioned and fighting for a more just and fair and open world. I take comfort in that, as I hope you do. I am officially signing off now. I will no doubt not have the last word…

    Comment by William — November 15, 2008 @ 2:31 am

 

63. Dawn Olsen LIVE interview
    blogtalkradio(dot)com
    Tuesday, NOV 18. at 12pm EST Interview with John Duignan, author “The Complex, An Insider Exposes the Covert world of the Church of Scientology” about his 22 years inside Scientology’s, Sea Organization.

    Comment by DM Longcat — November 15, 2008 @ 10:08 am

 

64. “Scientology is either the evil, money hungry cult some of you believe, or it’s the ethical, dedicated, exceptional organization I believe it to be.”

    It’s the evil, money-hungry cult we know it to be.

    Comment by Rachel — November 15, 2008 @ 12:12 pm

 

65. William, I will give you a longer answer later if you stay tuned. I too, have a life to lead beyond this website. If you are still out there though could you tell me, where Hubbard went wrong in Dianetics? Will Dianetics give you perfect memory as he claims twice (”and be able to use it” I think is the quote). Will clears have asthma, colds, morning sickness, need for corrective lenses, be able to work with information faultlessly and at 120 to 180 times the speed of a normal, and live a longer life? Hubbard claims these things and I can give the page numbers on my 1975 edition of the book. If things things are not so, why are they said to be true by Hubbard? Hubbard says he tested Dianetics on 270 people. He says that it works as precisely as chemistry of physics. He emphasizes that we are dealing with facts. He claims that he did 15 years of research. And he tells skeptics that if they don’t believe him it is because of their engrams. In short, he sounds pretty sure. If these things aren’t so, why doesn’t the church publish an edition with footnotes saying these things aren’t so? If you are clear, or have friends who are clear and they aren’t like this why do you think Hubbard was so sure? Please tell me what’s wrong here. I must tell you, I know many clears. Not one of them has any of these attributes. Heber Jentzch the former president wheres glasses. David Miscavige forgot facts about the church when talking to a television interviewer. Personally, I think Hubbard made the whole thing up. If I ever met a person with the attributes of clear I would change my mind though.

    Comment by William Hunt — November 15, 2008 @ 2:04 pm

 

66. And the Scientology crime syndicate claims that Cruise isn’t second in command of the criminal enterprise and yet the insane heterosexual engages in strong arm racketeering like this. Amazing.

    Amazon needs to grow a pair.

    Comment by Fredric L. Rice — November 15, 2008 @ 3:28 pm

 

67. This feed is quite interesting and as a former Scientologist, I know that William has deluded himself into thinking that Scientology is good and all of the posts are wrong.

    William, please ask yourself about the “ethics tech” have you seen people truely change forever or only for a short period of time? How many people do you know on staff for many years that have never progressed up “The Bridge”? Are they getting any auditing? Are they only getting handlings? I was a member for about 12 years and I know many staff members that were around a lot longer than I spending 30, 40, 60, 80 hours a week and not going up “The Bridge”. This was at a local mission not in the Sea Org. I was in charge of stats for our area and we were the #1 mission in about 2006 for starts out of about 30 missions in the area and we had about 1 every two weeks - this means that we were losing more people than started. Scientology is not expanding it’s getting smaller. Staff don’t progress up The Bridge without money only public people progress up The Bridge. Ask a few staff at your local chuch or mission where they are on The Bridge and how often they get auditing.

    I like William Hunt don’t want to invalidate “your wins” on the Bridge. I did have my own, but I will ask you - 1) how long do they last? An hour, a day, a few days, a month - LOOK! How much have these “wins” cost you in time, money… Take a real look at those around you are there new people at the events or are they the same staff and public? Is anyone really progressing up “The Bridge”? I will again say LOOK - what do you really see?

    Comment by Muiron — November 15, 2008 @ 5:01 pm

 

68. “And the Scientology crime syndicate claims that Cruise isn’t second in command of the criminal enterprise and yet the insane heterosexual engages in strong arm racketeering like this. Amazing.

    Amazon needs to grow a pair.”

    Of course he’s the 2nd in command. I highly doubt that with his family and business he would even have time to control so many functions of Scientology. He’s simply the most famous Scientologist.

    He never engaged in any strong armed racketeering! He had nothing to do with this!

    Comment by Sane Person — November 16, 2008 @ 2:38 am

 

69. He has everything to do with this. He is “the most dedicated scientologist I know”. His very visible anti psychiatry ranting with Matt Lauer, his speech at the IAS aeards, his meetings with German officials, his meetings with members of government and even his attempts at rehabilitating jhimself with Oprah shows that he is very much involved in KSW (Keep Scientology Working). He may not actually calling the shots (I don’t think David Miscavige would allow anyone any control) but he is involved in using his celebrity and influence to access areas scientologist would not normally have. Mr. Cruise is somoene who likes to be in control of processes whether it be as a Director, Actor or Parishioner. Past practices strongly indicate he would have some control of these events although he may not know exactly what is happening behind the scenes for example the treatment of Sea Org and RPF. But by listening to his entire, uncut, speech he made at the ISA he very much beleives that the ends can justify the means…”You are either in or you’re out”…”As a scientologist you just KNOW”…For that matter that is probably no worse in what you see in very fundamental Christian but we have too many examples of what blind faith belief in someone or something can lead too; Jim Jones, Davidians, Solar Temple, etc. I just pray to all that is good that this does not end in extreme measures but that the authorities start investigating the fraudulent practices and abuses whether it is a “church” or a “corporation”. And come’on since when does Tom Cruise go meet businesses like Amazon if not to influence executives. And he is on the record for suing anyone who writes any book that has the mere mention of his name and Jim Duigan has him in his book. Coincidence???

    Comment by Mitsu Too — November 16, 2008 @ 9:07 am

 

70. [...] Re: Press Releases: Scientology Attempts to Censor Critical Book, "The Complex" GlossLip Tom Cruise Meets With Amazon, Now Amazon UK Pulling Scientology Expose From Site - Coincide… [...]

    Pingback by Press Releases: Scientology Attempts to Censor Critical Book, "The Complex" - Page 20 - Why We Protest | Activism Forum — November 16, 2008 @ 10:24 am

 

71. Re:58. anonymous is a hate group by Tom Newton.

    Recently a young anon and myself turned up to do a protest in Hastings outside the Hubbards Dianetics center.Unbeknownst to us the previous day the $cientologists had gone around ALL the local businesses and told them that terrorists were coming to town the following day.

    We were greeted with a group of men who looked far from happy, we had watched and waited for some time before we decided to get a placard out and my young friend donned his mask. I am not anonymous. We were accused of being terrorists, the $cientologists had given out hate fliers and videos as well as vocally telling them about us “terrorists”. We had openly on the internet announced the protest, we gave these men all our on line details and told them to go look us up, which they did.

    When they returned about an hour later, they wished us luck and told us to keep coming back and protesting.

    I may be naive but I think what I have said above shows the lengths the $cientologists will go to, to stop people speaking out about them.

    The same with John Duigans’ book, we will ALL be reading it $cientology, have no fear of that. You can not keep suppressing the truth.

    The truth being L. Ron Hubbard was a science fiction writer and $cientology is a living science fiction,horror story. Believe me you couldn’t make this up.

    Comment by Sharone Stainforth — November 16, 2008 @ 12:02 pm

 

72. “When they returned about an hour later, they wished us luck and told us to keep coming back and protesting.

    I may be naive but I think what I have said above shows the lengths the $cientologists will go to, to stop people speaking out about them.”

    You aren’t naive-you’re right. They are desperate right now and becoming increasingly violent with protesters. They think that if somehow they can make the “terrorist” label stick Anon will go away. They won’t.

    “The same with John Duigans’ book, we will ALL be reading it $cientology, have no fear of that. You can not keep suppressing the truth.”

    Absolutely. This book is now guaranteed to sell more copies than if $cientology hadn’t attempted to suppress it. Apparently they’ve learned nothing from their attempts to stop the airing of the South Park episode and the leaked Cruise video.

    Comment by Rachel — November 16, 2008 @ 1:13 pm

 

73. In response to William— Comment 62

    As I said in Comment 65, I am not concerned with Hubbard’s theorizing in Dianetics being incorrect, I am concerned that so many of his observations are inaccurate after observing 270 people and repeatedly claiming consistency from person to person. I am further concerned that Scientology has never come clean about the inaccuracies in Dianetics. Which claims are inaccurate? Where is the footnoted addition? The best you can do is write on it that it is a “religious document” after one of the organizations of the US government (the FDA I believe) insisted that scientology do so. There are no clears as they are described in DMSMH.

    In 1970 I took some courses, got audited and read many books. My conclusion at the time was that it was not for me and that it may simply be a fraud. I thought, with the prediction that everyone in the world would be a Scientologist within five years, very soon I could see significant results in others and rejoin if wanted to. I was never declared suppressive. I still get letters and the occasional phone call at an old address asking me to rejoin. Seven years later I concluded that it was as I thought, a fraud. Meanwhile, friends and family also quit. Some were OT’s. None of them had OT powers though. Soon they too, admitted that they had made huge mistakes. Eventually the president of the local cult office left. His successor left. Do I really have to go back there again to make an educated decision about scientology’s efficacy? Books came out by ex members and journalists explaining what I had observed. I think I have looked closely enough. You should read some of the entheta yourself. If you only want to read Hubbard’s book, yellow line the promises and ask for proof back at the org. I must conclude that Scientology has produced only very minor results in the past 40 years.

    I have seen many decent Scientologists too. I don’t care much if people get audited or take courses. I care about the lies describing the results and the enormous sums of money paid for services. Reforming scientology is virtually impossible because it is based on lies. After the reformation there just wouldn’t be much left, I am sorry to say. His regression therapy, educational breakthroughs, drug therapies really don’t give anything more than a person in a big city can find down at the community centre. And they are currently blended with so much nonsense as to be harmful. I know that my reality here is far different from yours but I know what I do from my own experiences. Furthermore, my experience isn’t tainted by peer pressure from the new friends, requests for success stories, an inability to admit to myself that I have been taken for a lot of money, someone finding my ruin and working on it until it becomes an active psychosis with the cult being presented as the only treatment, or hope that I will soon understand my immortality and have control knowingly and at will over MEST, or fear of excommunication.

    Furthermore, there are many, many things that can help people. We get help from a multitude of sources while growing up. I am not a defeatist. I am not a cynic. I have an accurate understanding of scientology, which is different than your own. I must also add that most of the people I know in Scientology didn’t need help before they got there. Hubbard repeatedly said that it was to make the able more able. They couldn’t spend too much time on the insane because they took too long to fix up and he had to clear the planet in a hurry. He left the insane for psychiatrists and psychologists I suppose. I was told that that has changed, to some degree. Well, I suppose a psychotic’s money is as good as anybody else’s. From my point of view, this is not cynicism; this is reality in keeping with what I have seen for the last forty years.

    A lot has been hidden from the public. When I was involved we were told that if we even heard the name Xenu we would die within two days from pneumonia. But when the story got out on the internet nobody died. Scientology spokesman actively lied denying Xenu. I heard them lie on an A&E show and on a radio show. Hubbard lied not only about Xenu, but also about the pneumonia. Nobody died. They continue to lie about compatibility with other religions. Travolta has lied about that on national television. He is past OT3. He knows religion is an implant and that there was no man on the cross. As I said, we called lying to the public about scientology, “Speaking on gradient”.

    I imagine the Cruise speech was moving when surrounded by Scientologists. I watched it with a couple of wog buddies one of whom doesn’t know my history. They laughed to the point of tears. To me, that the scientologists thought his speech was moving just goes to show how twisted their worldview has become.

    I don’t like journalists much myself but that doesn’t mean they are always wrong. I don’t like them when they print “balanced” accounts about your cult. These accounts often follow negative articles. Sometimes, you can hardly blame them for printing positive misinformation about scientology. They don’t want to go though a half billion-dollar lawsuit like Time Magazine did (before having the suit thrown out of court). One woman I met who works for an Ontario paper was followed to the airport with two men flanking her who carried sandwich signs with her picture on them and the caption, “Religious Bigot”. It is no wonder that newspapers don’t want to be accurate in their stories about Scientology. I have been on the receiving end of poor journalism too, hatchet jobs. But in the case of scientology, I think they could do much better in alerting the public to a menace. Maybe I wouldn’t have gotten stuck in there in my teens had the local papers been more vigilant. Thank goodness that today anyone can go to the internet and get stories from all sides. I am no journalist but I won’t be shy about making my story known. There is no plugging the dyke now. The stories are out.

    How do I know that most Sea Org members catch on and flee– your stats, of course. When I was a member (1970) the cult claimed 15 million members worldwide, repeatedly and in print. Today they claim eight million or ten million. I assume the sea orgers are among those in the statistic. But mostly it is my own experience. Almost everyone either gets thrown out or leaves. I just have to look at the local cult office to see that.

    Touch assists are placebos as compared to sugar pills in green boxes that a grey haired doctor swears will cure whatever ails a person. Try doing a few touch assists with the wrong method. It will work just as well as a touch assist with the “right” method. I have done this. Go ahead. Try it. I don’t belittle the hard work and dedication of some scientologists. I just think they are making matters worse with their hard work and dedication. They are part of the problem. And since you ask, I did about 8 hours of volunteer work last Wednesday, but my argument wouldn’t be any different if I never lifted a finger for another person in my life. If my experience is subjective is yours better? You might think that you have your own subjective experience, which is as good as mine or better. I don’t think it is. I think a bad idea was put in your mind through L.Ron Hubbard and his idea has influenced your experience. I don’t think you seek out contradictory views. Try to think up an experiment where you can truly test an assist to see how much they help people. The one I have suggested might work, if you don’t want to get into it too deeply.

    Narcanon may have saved some lives, it probably has. It works just as well as any well-contrived placebo. It has also cost lives because it prevents people from getting legitimate help. I suspect that most of the people who say, “Scientology saved my life,” are people who are trying to emphasize how important scientology is to them and they want to make a point that would be insulting to argue with. Who is going to come back and say, “No it didn’t.” after hearing that but me, and then in a note on the internet. Remember though, it was once my job to go out on the street and find peoples “ruins”. I checked this phenomenon out in a book called, “Moonwebs” which is about cults, mostly the Unification Church. It says that cults will often go out and find the sort of problem that most everybody has had just in growing up. The individual may have met failure in school, marriage, with their parents, crime, drug abuse, girl or boyfriends, sexual identity, or their religion. The list goes on and on. My job was to take what psychologists call a background neurosis, which may have long been forgotten, and bring it to the surface as an active psychosis. Scientology would then be presented as the only alternative. That is how scientology supposedly saved their lives. Most scientologists wouldn’t even have had problems had guys like me not found the buried ones and salted the psychic wound. The stress test and the personality test do it much better than I ever could. I have done no test or survey here. I affirm that I rely on my subjective experience, research and reflection, which I think, is quite meaningful.

    Here’s more bad news. The first courses are the best ones. If they threw the real nonsense at you now you would just walk out. Whatever Hubbard was, he was no fool. He knew that if he just threw pure nonsense at people when they came in off the street they would laugh at him. So he prepared people with the early courses, which contain some good common sense and some reasonable material, which he made up or organized. He had a good knowledge of human nature. It’s great that you have strengthened your marriage and started a business and gained confidence. I have a good marriage, a good job and confidence without shelling out $100 a week. So do most of the people I know. But the big wins, I mean the OT stuff, the clear stuff, control knowingly and at will over MEST, isn’t THAT just around the corner. How can you compare a stable marriage to control over matter, energy, space and time? That’s just around the corner, isn’t it? Or am I wrong? And be careful, the early courses are the cheap ones. Remember me when you are putting down a thousand dollars an hour for auditing. And I just wish Hubbard paid more attention to his own advice as it applies to marriage. Maybe he wouldn’t have had three of them, including a bigamistic one. Cruise is also at three but he is still young. At least none of his wives has done time.

    I have a few friends that have benefited from psychiatric counselling. Others I know have had little benefit from it. It is in no way the caricature that scientology makes it out to be but it is far from being a perfect science. That’s scientology’s in—because psychiatry does so poorly, scientology can come in and say it is a viable alternative. It is, in fact, a horrible alternative. What is more, psychiatrists don’t get their patients by having low paid “expediters” handing out handbills on street corners. They don’t hook them in for a lifetime of consultations using stress tests and personality tests, which invariably show the person being tested to be troubled. Troubled people come to them or are referred to them by other physicians. You don’t like dealing with the sick, you like making the able more able. You leave the sick to the psychiatrists. And unlike your ministers, the government regulates psychiatry. I know what they charge. I know what you charge too.

    You have some religious recognition in the US. The Supreme Court, in its last decision said that you are not a religion. The tax office said you are a religion in a very controversial decision. It made a mistake, which should be reviewed. Google Doug Fratz, New York Times, Scientology to read about it. I refer you to this just as you refer me to Keep Scientology Working.

    Doing Scientology in what you assume is my way may result in the sewing circle you describe. Doing it the standard tech way results in enemies lists, suppressives, an ethics office, an office of special affairs, and a pseudoscience which cannot be built on or reformed. Science is tested and replicated from the outside. Scientology is whatever L.Ron Hubbard says it is. Could you please elucidate on which parts of scientology you deem to be imperfect? Is it so awful to give the viewpoint of scientology a try you ask? Yes. If you think society is bad now, can you imagine a society run by scientology? I would have to go into hiding. Still, the chances of the scientologists ever getting any real power are slim to nil. To most people, it is transparent nonsense. I am not worried.

    As I explained, I have no intentions of talking to the local scientologists unless it is to council them to leave. They can say nothing that would change my point of view. If one of them, though, could gain thirty pounds just by thinking like L.Ron Hubbard says they can, I would join in a minute. I would take out a second mortgage. I would divorce my wife if she protested. The talk, though, just doesn’t cut it. Let’s see them do what L.Ron said they should be able to do. That’s not asking much. Until then, I will continue to assume that it is a big fraud. And Harvard doesn’t claim to make people ethical, scientology does.

    I don’t think this is going to change you any more than your words have changed me. I think you are an honest, if foolish, man. Thank you for spending all that time in an effort to help me understand.

    Comment by William Hunt — November 16, 2008 @ 7:44 pm

 

74. [...] a brief subject description from Amazon’s site, where you can no longer get the book (read about how Amazon pulled this book after a visit from top Scientologist and second in command, Tom Cruise on Nov. [...]

    Pingback by GlossLip » Glosslip Radio Exclusive: Author and Ex-Scientologist John Duignan, Tuesday, Nov. 18, 12:00pm — November 17, 2008 @ 5:20 pm

 

75. CoS supporters seem to be rabidly posting on sites that are especially effective at exposing the syndicate. There appears to be a campaign designed to simply take up a lot of space to deflect damage, caused by knowledgeable posters. What they can’t see is that MOST everyone else sees things in context; not a context assigned by a ruthless syndicate.

    Once alerted to facts about, say… a legal council, who was nailed by the Feds TWICE, for fabricating evidence and is still working for the church, an alarm goes off. Not to mention numerous other cases where the “church” walked where almost no one else (except of other racketeers and special interest groups) would. We non-”church” members, (or wogs) can also used our un-tampered-with, common experiences in hearing detailed accounts by journalist (read Paulette Cooper’s nightmare), lawyers, who were smeared and litigated into bankruptcy– not to mention many, many former members who suffered inside and then trying to escape (Why would anyone need to ESCAPE anyway? That alone should give ANY freethinking person pause.) to the outside to decide what makes sense and what doesn’t.

    Do I think governments and large corporations have special interests and agendas and have engaged in underhanded practices to assert them? You betcha. But I would never align myself with a malevolent syndicate like CoS, even if they happened to be on the same side of an issue, to fight them. I have too many other options. If members stepped outside the soundproof booth, they’d find they did too.

    Comment by pf — November 17, 2008 @ 6:42 pm

 

76. omg they forced those poor people to watch Valkyrie…no need to torture tom, geesh. he sounds like a real wing nut.

    Comment by mpoppins — November 18, 2008 @ 6:04 am

 

77. ps what is with tom cruise always wearing black boots, black jeans, and a black shirt? get a life tom cruise…get a real life.

    Comment by mpoppins — November 18, 2008 @ 6:11 am

 

78. I cannot imagine anyone actually paying money to see Valkyrie. The trailer is awful and it comes out at Christmastime.

    The only reason this movie was made is because $cientology was hoping to win over the German government. With the huge warning sign going up at the Berlin org I think it’s safe to assume the cult failed.

    Comment by Rachel — November 18, 2008 @ 9:01 am

 

79. Bryan Singer and co. had no interest in changing German opinion of Scientology. They just wnated to, you know…make a movie!!!

    That Sputh Park episode thing was an urban legend. Why would Scientologists care about years-old Tom Cruise gay jokes?

    Comment by Sane Person — November 18, 2008 @ 9:42 pm

 

80. Changing the opinion of the German govt. was the ONLY reason he made the movie that no one wants to see.

    And yes, $cientology/Cruise pressured the network not to re-broadcast the South Park episode, it told the Xenu story, a delightful little tale for which the cult typically charges $360,000.

    Silly troll. You are FAIL.

    Comment by Rachel — November 18, 2008 @ 11:19 pm

 

81. I found it interesting to read William’s comments, especially given that my knowledge of Scientology is research based rather then observation based. I think that people have the right to believe whatever they choose- be that the planet needs to be cleared, Jesus/God’s forgiveness can save our soul, the Messiah is yet to come or that our fate in the afterlife is determined by whether our heart weighs more then a feather on a scale. So the flaws I have noticed in Scientology have nothing to do with what they want to believe in be it thetans, past lives, auditing or working in the Sea Org. Yet William was defending the right to live by his beliefs and offering justifications for why they are right. He gave no argument refuting the fact that Scientology suppress counter information to what the Church offers and harasses those who publicly criticized it.

    I do NOT see it as a cult as that is a subjective term. Rather I see it as an organization that actively suppress free speech AND does not show transparency. The Vatican may have done that with sexual abuse but the actual Bible and its writers did not condone it. Adultery is a sin, some translations of the Bible contain verses saying homosexuality was a sin i.e the writings of Paul (whether the original Greek was talking about homosexuality is up for debate) and Jesus showed great love for children. Hubbard conceived the concept of Fair Game and disconnection. Also it is ridiculous to say that Scientology has had more negative media coverage then the clergy’s abuse. At least in my home country it was the sexual abuse that was and still it is circulated more widely and discussed more often.
    It is the policies of Fair Game and disconnection that outrages me and always will as long they are practiced. I believe people have the right to associate with whom they choose to and can discern for themselves whether or they are being suppressed or negatively affected by another. Just as William has a right to be a Scientologist, I have right not to be. Just as he has the right to publicly discuss his reasons for the religious choices he made, I have the right to express mine. Which is why I am not signing this (hopefully not too long winded) rant with Anon. I will not hide my identity and I will express my opinions as I see fit regardless of how many billions the Church of Scientology accumulates.

    P.S. Given that I live outside of the U.S. I have seen the South Park episode about Tom Cruise and boy it made me laugh.

    Comment by Amy — November 20, 2008 @ 10:08 am

 

82. I am glad I came back to see what was on this thread Amy. Your comments are very interesting and very sensible.

    Comment by William Hunt — November 22, 2008 @ 1:26 am

 

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